Just how hard is it to make that shot under duress?

[Guest trumpettgriffin]

Homeowner Forced To Shoot Intruders - Local News - Nashville, TN - News - msnbc.com

I watched a little segment on the local news in Nashville regarding this. (Good to see the mainstream media portraying someone who was within his rights to defend himself).

The homeower was a former Marine, presumably with some firearms training. He missed cleanly twice at very close range.

Just how difficult is this situation? Is there any way to truly prepare for it?

[Punisher84]

As someone else said in the other thread, just because he was a Marine doesn't mean anything. He could have been on desk duty or a mechanic for his military career. People put to much stock in the military training in relation to self-defense. In BCT you never touch a handgun and most people never train much or carry one in their career.

You can train easily for that encounter. Advanced training through firearms training schools is the best way. Any self-defense situation is going to be hell on your nerves, but if you train your mind and your body to get that muscle memory you will perform well. The saying is true that you do not rise to the occasion, but fall to your level of training.

Example I have a friend that was in a shooting awhile back. 4 out of 5 rounds hit his TWO targets, they missed him. So he was able to put 4 out of 5 rounds on 2 targets, from a draw, under fire. He's never had LE or military training. Only civilian firearms training. He is alive because he trained to stay that way mentally and physically.

[Guest Plainsman]

Example I have a friend that was in a shooting awhile back. 4 out of 5 rounds hit his TWO targets, they missed him. So he was able to put 4 out of 5 rounds on 2 targets, from a draw, under fire. He's never had LE or military training. Only civilian firearms training. He is alive because he trained to stay that way mentally and physically.

Glad to hear the friend is ok. I'm sure the training he received is now priceless. Was there a lawsuit attached to that 5th round?

[Guest rsgillmd]

I have not had to shoot anyone in self defense, so take what I say with a grain of salt. From the medical perspective, unless you are on a high dose of beta blockers or have had extensive combat experience, your body will be flooded with adrenaline (fight or flight response). Fine movements, even if previously practiced repeatedly, are at high risk for being lost. You will likely get tunnel vision (seeing only your target and losing perspective of the surroundings), and may also develop a degree of auditory block. I can vouch for the last part from anecdotal experience -- my uncle who has fired a shotgun in home defense says he does not even remember hearing the shot.

As someone above said, you will likely, for all practical purposes, resort to your worst level of training. So unless you intend to join the military to fight, your best bet is to practice different scenarios repeatedly.

[Punisher84]

Glad to hear the friend is ok. I'm sure the training he received is now priceless. Was there a lawsuit attached to that 5th round?

Nope. Cleared out good shoot all the way around. I think the 5th hit the ground and ended up in the dirt or something.

[Punisher84]

I have not had to shoot anyone in self defense, so take what I say with a grain of salt. From the medical perspective, unless you are on a high dose of beta blockers or have had extensive combat experience, your body will be flooded with adrenaline (fight or flight response). Fine movements, even if previously practiced repeatedly, are at high risk for being lost. You will likely get tunnel vision (seeing only your target and losing perspective of the surroundings), and may also develop a degree of auditory block. I can vouch for the last part from anecdotal experience -- my uncle who has fired a shotgun in home defense says he does not even remember hearing the shot.

As someone above said, you will likely, for all practical purposes, resort to your worst level of training. So unless you intend to join the military to fight, your best bet is to practice different scenarios repeatedly.

Yup you can pretty much figure that being your worst scenario. That's why advanced training is so,so,so,so,SO important for permit holders. You have to be able to fight those things off as best you can. I've never fired a shot in self-defense, but I've been in alot of fights at work that I remember really zoning in on. Everyone is different, but for me I don't experience any ill effects until AFTER. Once I get that adrenaline dump...yuck.

Just some good training tips that I've learned:

Practice drawing from concealment repeatedly. Add the extra step even if you mostly OC.

Focus on drawing and getting two shots on target in a decent group in under 2 seconds.

Simulate stress (be safe and mindful)

Practice malfunction drills constantly

Don't get used to drawing on the sound of a buzzer or "GO" or "DRAW" use different tactics. "GUN" "WATCH OUT" or even have a range buddy fire a shot in the lane next to you or on another target as your draw marker.

[Daniel]

I made the statement Punisher referenced in the first post.

Ill give a little scenario.

I went with a SGM, an E9, who had been in the Army around 20 years and two CPTs who had been in about 6 to the pistol qualification range. You fire something like 30-40 rounds. It is set up in tables of fire. Some walking some stationary. None of the shots are ridiculous. The two CPTs scored perfect. I do not feel it was out of the ordinary either as I could have done the same I am sure. The SGM scored like ~5 hits. He had at least 3 times as many years in the service and what could be percieved as 3 times as much experience yet he did terrible. Military service does not guarantee being an expert with a firearm.

I also had a Plt SGT who couldnt qualify with 23 hits out of 40 on the regular rifle range. It took him all damn day everytime we went to qualify. This man was "Ranger" qualified and had been in Ranger BN.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Daniel

[Punisher84]

I made the statement Punisher referenced in the first post.

I also had a Plt SGT who couldnt qualify with 23 hits out of 40 on the regular rifle range. It took him all damn day everytime we went to qualify. This man was "Ranger" qualified and had been in Ranger BN.

Sorry I didn't quote you I was at work and had limited time to backtrack on the first note, on the second YOU GOTTA BE F'ING KIDDING ME?! Did he just deteriorate or was that guy married to a General's daughter?

[Daniel]

He spent all his time in a headquarters unit. It wasnt until after he was relieved for cause from

our platoon that we found that out though.

Someone got a chance to look through his record.

[Punisher84]

He spent all his time in a headquarters unit. It wasnt until after he was relieved for cause from

our platoon that we found that out though.

Someone got a chance to look through his record.

Wow man. That's all I can say lol

[Guest trumpettgriffin]

I get it. (on the military experience part). I pretty much thought that already (wasn't trying to presume he was an expert, just making a case that he might not be someone that just went out a bought a gun for the nightstand)

I also appreciate the training tips. They sound smart and I already do some of them. Anyone else want to suggest a few drills?

[Guest db99wj]

My 6 years Army National Guard duty, we did not do much small arms firing (M16, .45, or 9mm) Yes my unit still had 1911's in the early 90's! So qualification was about it for our shooting of small arms with a few more range trips throughout the year. My job was Armor crewman, 19E/19K. As a gunner on a M60A3 and M1 tank, I would not want to mess with me on the 105mm or M240 machine guns..there is a reason I was the gunner on the Platoon Sgts and LT.'s tank . Anyway, our training focused on tanks, the systems and maintenance of the equipment.

The reason I said that is to drive home what has been said, military service doesn't make one an expert in shooting, even if they shot expert in qualification.

With that said, I have done civilian training outside of my permit process. I also have more than 2 shots, and am not afraid to use them. While the hit/miss ratio is important, the primary objective is to eliminate the threat and whether that is one shot or 13 round plus a reload, as long as you can go home is all that counts in the end of the day. I'm not saying shoot wildly into the air and hope you hit the target, but from all the shootings I have read about, misses are a part of the deal, they are a reality.

[Guest db99wj]

I get it. (on the military experience part). I pretty much thought that already (wasn't trying to presume he was an expert, just making a case that he might not be someone that just went out a bought a gun for the nightstand)

I also appreciate the training tips. They sound smart and I already do some of them. Anyone else want to suggest a few drills?

Malfunction drills. Get some snap caps(dummy rounds), mix in during your shooting sessions, and practice malfunctions, so that you can clear the problem and get back to shooting very quickly. Use the Tap, Rack, Bang drill. You can also practice this at home with snap caps, of course practicing safety and take all precautions to ensure live ammo doesn't get mixed in while you practice.

1. Tap refers to the first action; that is to tap the magazine. This is to ensure that the magazine is properly engaged in the firearm so that it feeds properly. As typically taught in tactical firearms courses, the "tap" is considerably more than a tap and in the case of a semiautomatic pistol is usually accomplished by slamming the gun hard into the palm of the other hand, magazine end down.
   
2. Rack refers to operating (cocking or cycling) of the slide of the firearm. This will serve to eject a miss-fired round – that could be a possible cause of the stoppage – and chamber the next round.
   
3. Bang simply denotes the action of firing the firearm following the first two steps.
   

This should be second nature. If you pull the trigger, and it goes click, you should get to the point where you instinctively do this, immediately after the failure.

[guyandarifle]

It's far from being the "same" but it's amazing how much "buck fever" (though it wouldn't have to be a deer of course) can effect some people. The similarity is a jump in adrenaline. I once read a story as told by a bear guide in AK about a guy he put on a big Brown. The dude raised his rifle...and cycled through his entire magazine without ever firing. I've seen other people that from the first time they ever took aim at game simply pointed, fired, and hit their target. African guides could go all day about some clients that faced a DG charge and simply threw down their weapon and ran. Other times they can have complete novices stand their ground. Different people can have wildly different reactions to idendical scenarios.

I think the ability to keep one's cool and being a good shot are two fairly distinct attributes. A lousy shot can be cool as a cucumber and still miss the target. Conversely, a person who can shoot the wings off flys is pretty worthless if they have a mental meltdown.

[Backon4]

I played competition paintball for 15 years. While I don't want to say it has made me a better shooter it has helped me to know how my body reacts to adrenaline and has given me some skills that are useful and do transfer well to the real world. Skills such as shooting off hand (weak side), snap shooting, trigger control, and environmental awareness to name few. While I haven't participated in any IDPA events yet, I don plan on doing so, as well as some 3 gun. But for now when I go shooting I make sure I practice drawing and firing, point shooting, and shooting from cover. The one big sticker for me is how many people practice shooting by just standing 7 yards out and dumping mag after mag. I practice using paper plates and look at it as center mass. If I can hit 100% from various scenarios and at various distances then I call it good. Others may look at me as crazy but I really think it will help in the event I do ever need to pull.

[-Bristol-]

I served in the active army 4 years and NEVER carried a handgun, was never trained too. Only M16 with M4 launcher. But as a civilian, I've made the effort to become very familiar with my firearms, fired alot of ammo. Take the advice mentioned by some here and check around, maybe take a class to get a good foundation. Use speed drills, practice reload, malfunction failures, clearing your home, etc..............There are videos and books that offer good drills to practice.

[-Bristol-]

Here's a drill I have had fun with. It is a timed event. Start by going to YouTube and search "Shooting El Presidente" and various examples will appear and several variations. We use milk jugs instead of silhoetts because they are reactive, in other words you hit them and they move. It is a double tap drill so if you hit in the first shot then you have to be prepared to follow the target on the follow-up shot. We also do not sit the targets all at the same distance but at 3 distances. And when you turn to face the target, you start with the closest and take it out first. There will be six targets total, two shots at each with a mag change in the middle. A total of 12 shots fired.

[Guest Bluemax]

All good advice but try this as well. Perforn some calisthinics, get your heart rate up to around 120 and your sucking air: then immediatly fire 3 shots at a target. Compare this to three shots fired from the same distance while your body is relaxed.

[wstrnrdr]

I know what his problem was! A SGM, E8. He couldn"t count. Sgm is an E9. E8 is 1st SGt or MSGT.

20 years and did'nt know his rank?

[Daniel]

typo. good call.

[Dropkick Murphy]

Everyone is different, but for me I don't experience any ill effects until AFTER. Once I get that adrenaline dump...yuck.

Back in the day when I worked PD I was the same. During the fight, everything was clear, I was clam, I handled everything professionally. However, 3 or 4 minutes after everything was under control my legs would start shaking and I would have a hard time standing up. Sometimes, if it was something really bad (Like a suit case with a FKING PIPE BOMB IN IT, UNDER A STAIRWELL!) I would go and throw up afterward. I thought it was the strangest thing. I honestly always chalked it up to me being scared, but I guess it was me being scared and the adrenaline sickness.

My biggest problem, and I always kicked myself in the butt for it after the fact, was breathing. As stupid as it sounds, I would always forget to breath. I would get into a fight and after I would be all out of breath. It took me a while to realize that I didn't breath properly, or didn't breath at all during the ordeal.

Sorry, not trying to be He-Man, or talking big, just wanted to hand out that little gem of experience. Remind yourself to breath, and control your breathing.

[Daniel]

I see that on PT tests. The person I am grading is all red in the face trying to get one more and they havent taken a breath in 10 seconds.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

I made the statement Punisher referenced in the first post.

Ill give a little scenario.

I went with a SGM, an E9, who had been in the Army around 20 years and two CPTs who had been in about 6 to the pistol qualification range. You fire something like 30-40 rounds. It is set up in tables of fire. Some walking some stationary. None of the shots are ridiculous. The two CPTs scored perfect. I do not feel it was out of the ordinary either as I could have done the same I am sure. The SGM scored like ~5 hits. He had at least 3 times as many years in the service and what could be percieved as 3 times as much experience yet he did terrible. Military service does not guarantee being an expert with a firearm.

I also had a Plt SGT who couldnt qualify with 23 hits out of 40 on the regular rifle range. It took him all damn day everytime we went to qualify. This man was "Ranger" qualified and had been in Ranger BN.

Other than the reasons that you have already described of why this happened is the fact that the officers began training with sidearms during their officer basic while the SGM being an enlisted soldier probably had never even been assigned one and if he had it had been recent.

Officers almost always carry sidearms but most enlisted dont. Some jobs do require sidearms for enlisted troops and some higher ranking ones are assigned them but it is very few and far between. I spent 16 years playing Army and National Guard and only the four years as an MP was I ever assigned a pistol. Even then the training was little and far between. Your example of the Officers and the SGM do not surprise me one bit.

And as others have said the Military does not in any way prepare a person for EDC in the civilian world. As I said some jobs will better than others but all I brought from my military training into the civilian world was basic gun safety and nothing else.

As for shooting under stress I really have no idea how well I would do. A combat zone is much different than a civilian encounter would be. I can only hope that I would be able to remain calm during the encounter and melt down afterward which has been the case in the past for me, both in the CZ and in non shooting emergencies in the civilian world.

All of the drills posted here are good ones and it is this site among others than I try to learn all that I can about the world of handguns and civilian EDC. I wish like heck the Army would have taught me this stuff but they sure didnt. I do want and need to take some additional handgun training but life with three kids gets all in the way of the money for such things. One day I will get there and hopefuly it will be before I ever have to be tested in the real world.

[Punisher84]

Back in the day when I worked PD I was the same. During the fight, everything was clear, I was clam, I handled everything professionally. However, 3 or 4 minutes after everything was under control my legs would start shaking and I would have a hard time standing up. Sometimes, if it was something really bad (Like a suit case with a FKING PIPE BOMB IN IT, UNDER A STAIRWELL!) I would go and throw up afterward. I thought it was the strangest thing. I honestly always chalked it up to me being scared, but I guess it was me being scared and the adrenaline sickness.

My biggest problem, and I always kicked myself in the butt for it after the fact, was breathing. As stupid as it sounds, I would always forget to breath. I would get into a fight and after I would be all out of breath. It took me a while to realize that I didn't breath properly, or didn't breath at all during the ordeal.

Sorry, not trying to be He-Man, or talking big, just wanted to hand out that little gem of experience. Remind yourself to breath, and control your breathing.

That's pretty much how I've always been. More or less. I don't think I do the breathing thing to the extent you do, but I do remember being out of breath a few times.

[Will Carry]

From my own personal experiance. When the time came to defend my home from invasion, I was shaking like a leaf. I was hoping that after the first shot the shaking would go away. Thank God I did not have to shoot.