HD Shottie setup: pistol grip vs full stock

[Desert Rat]

smileyguy:

With a light and laser sighted in on a shotgun shooting from the side is faster than bringing it to your shoulder and in a tense situation it is more stable than at the shoulder with your arm stretched out to support the weapon. With a sling I can use it one handed if needed. I guess pistol grips are meant to be used by those that are coordinated enough to use them properly.

[Guest smileyguy]

smileyguy:

I guess pistol grips are meant to be used by those that are coordinated enough to use them properly.

No need for a personal attack. I am a former colliegate athelete and am plenty cooridinated. In fact, my method takes more strength and coordination than hip shooting. That's why I would not suggest it for weaklings. Now, I agree that using a laser makes aim less neccassary. I think lasers are good tools, but electronic gizmos can and do fail. I believe one should always no how to properly use sights before relying on gizmos.

Now as far as the "proper" technique, Massad Ayoob, who as I'm sure you know, wrote the book on tactical shootgun, said that hip shooting as long been "discredited" resulting in more misses than hits. Some of the most respected experts including Massad Ayoob, the late great Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Paul Castle, etc, etc, etc... recommend chest level shooting for CQB. In this manner the sights can not be used, but the barrell is within the line of sight and can be somewhat aimed. That is the "proper" technique. I like my way, because I am strong enough and "cooridinated" enough to do so. A lot of people aren't.

Massad says hip shooting is "discredited". I still say it is movie garbage.

If I were you, I would refrain from speaking on "proper" technique when it is pretty much universally discredited. I would also not personally attack people you don't know.

PS. My dog can kick your dogs ass...just kidding..lol

Edited August 27, 2010 by smileyguy

[Desert Rat]

It was not meant to be a personal attack. If you look at the poll results only two people at this time feel comfortable using a pistol grip in a home defense situation. How a person uses a shotgun best is a personal decision and how they are able to best control the weapon in a stressed situation. On and off I have been practicing the technique I use for 40+ years and also realize it is not for everybody as not every body wants to do the required practice.

You made the comment that shooting from the hip is Movie garbage! In the 70s when I was range master at a gun club I met people who could shoot single action pistols fast draw style and hit 6 out of 6 separate targets shooting from the hip. I was not coordinated enough to do that but I was able to pick up their technique for using a shot gun. I am glad all the so called experts have made their claims but actually I am not familiar with any of their writing as I was not into reading a book to find the "Proper" Technique. I am not into combat shotgun shooting. I have a shotgun for HD and another in case I need to hunt with one.

I shot trap, ducks, and birds in the 70s so might know about using a shot gun for birds. As far as failure! Anything can and does fail at some time. Even the gun itself or the ammo. I read somewhere that a pump action shotgun is not a good choice for home defense because of the possibility of the action to fail. That so-called expert claimed a double barrel in 20 gauge using #4 was all that is needed for home defense. The claim was that anything more was an accident waiting to happen. I did not agree with him either.

I agree that the Experts know their own limitations and should follow their own advise.

[mikegideon]

An 870 or a 500 ain't gonna fail. The odds are as slim as the action on the double barrel failing.

[Guest smileyguy]

Deaert Rat:

I think the poll results show that the other 40 something voters show that they believe stocks are better than PGO. NOT that they are not comfortable using a PGO shotgun. My girlfriend is comfortable shooting from the hip with a PG. She was hitting targets at about 15 yards the only time she ever shot a PGO shotgun. It's still not the best way.

I'm sorry you are not familiar with the "experts" I mentioned. Some so called experts don't know squat, like whoever you read that wrote pump actions were not reliable. But the likes of Massad Ayoob and Jeff Copper are VERY well respected. Massad doesn't make "claims". He determined from real life data that hip shooting resulted in more misses than hits. Try hip shooting the next time you go bird hunting and get back with me. Better yet try a 3-gun match hip shooting.

When you where a range master in the 70s, hip shooting was the standard in CQB shotgunning, just as single hand shooting with revolvers was the standard back in the 40s. Tommy guns were shot from the hip as well. The thing is that tactics have evolved. These are no longer taught because there are much better tactics, not that no one is comfortable doing it or can't do it. I don't think any one would suggest shooting a carbine, such as a Tommy gun or AR or AK, from the hip. That is rediculous. A lot of novice shooters and first time gun owners want a PGO because they see it in the movies. They also think hip shooting is the best way to use one, because it is in the movies and looks cool. That's why I call it movie garbage.

Shoot the way you are comfortable. It won't hurt my feelings. I have shot PGO. I don't own a PGO shotgun, because I believe that stocks are MUCH better. If I had to use one, I would use the sights. That isn't exactly the norm either, but I'm comfortable using one that way.

They general consensus by respected experts is that hip shooting is incorrect, and the general consensus of TGOers, by far, is that stocks are better than PGO. People that have never shot a gun think PGO guns are cool because they saw it in some Vin Deisel or Jason Statham movie.

[Desert Rat]

I already said that I learned to shoot properly that way. It is not for everybody and most people attempting it never learn how to shoot properly. Yes I shot a Tommy Gun and other select fire weapons at that time. Maximum control of the weapon is my main concern. That is how I practice for home defense. 15 yards is a LONG shot when shooting in a residence and an attacker can disarm you before you can get the weapon to your shoulder. I also advised you that the method I use is only for HD. You do seem to be not understanding what I have said.

As far as reliability of weapons the claim was made that the more parts in a gun the more possibilities of failure. There are those who claim civilians are not qualified to shoot pump and should rely on either dbl barrel or auto loaders because most people do not practice enough with their weapons to use them in a stress situation.

I already said that people need to find what is most comfortable for them and practice that method.

The poll shows that 40 some people have found what they feel is most comfortable for them in grip configuration. You appear to know your limitations which is commendable!

[Mike]

<-- is still limited by the death grip of his stocked shotgun.

[Guest smileyguy]

Yes I shot a Tommy Gun and other select fire weapons at that time.

I didn't ask if you had shot one. I was pointing out that tactics have evolved. People used to hip shoot those back in the day. Today, that would be tactically unsound.

15 yards is a LONG shot when shooting in a residence and an attacker can disarm you before you can get the weapon to your shoulder. I also advised you that the method I use is only for HD. You do seem to be not understanding what I have said.

I understand exactly what you said. You do seem to be not understanding what I have said. The point is that any Joe Shmoe can hit still targets with a PGO even at distances longer than HD distances. Hitting multiple and/or moving targets, as would be encountered in HD, is not as easy. You understand that, and thats why you would not take a PGO bird hunting or to a 3-gun match. You, and everyone else in the world, is more effective engaging multiple, moving targets by taking aimed shots. That's why 48 of us now voted against PGO. Not that we don't know how to use one, but because it is less effective.

and an attacker can disarm you before you can get the weapon to your shoulder.

The gun stays ready and to the shoulder in a HD situation. I dare say I can deploy mine as quickly as a PGO. The argument for PGO has never been speed but manuverability in very tight spaces. In tight spaces the high tuck at chest level can be used with a stocked gun as well as a PGO. The high tuck has been shown to be more accurate than from the hip due to the barrell being in the line of sight. A stocked gun can be used in the same manner as a PGO, shot from the hip or shot from the high tuck possition, but a PGO will never be as accurate or aquire targets as quickly as a stocked weapon.

Also, if a perp is close enough to disarm a stocked gun, he is close enough to disarm a PGO. Proper tactics eliminate that possibility. Simple things like not sticking the barrell through a doorway. That's why tactics such a slicing the pie are used. And again, a stocked weapon can still be weilded at the hip or high tuck just like a PGO.

I already said that people need to find what is most comfortable for them and practice that method. The poll shows that 40 some people have found what they feel is most comfortable for them in grip configuration

I don't think the 48 of us so far chose stocks because we are more comfortable with them. It's because they are more effective at getting accurate shots on target faster. I think you are more effective at getting faster, more accurate shots on target with a stock than with a PGO. If you were better with the PGO, it would be your bird gun.

Edited August 28, 2010 by smileyguy

[Desert Rat]

I think that is why they have developed different styles of weapons and ammo. Do YOU use a slug or 00 buck for bird hunting? If a person only has one shot gun it should have a 24 to 28 inch barrel held at the shoulder and pointed using the bead sight, or do you recommend iron sites for bird hunting? To show my age I will admit that I learned that you aim a rifle or pistol but you point a shotgun. As I have already said I prefer a PGO for close quarters use such as home defense. I prefer a light and laser for more accurate shot placement and having those on the weapon to free my hands to control the weapon rather than a light source. With a pressure switch I have easier control of the light for momentary illumination so as not to become a fixed target.

We are talking home defense strategies and not hunting or GI Joe game strategies. My bird gun is semi auto and has a 28 inch barrel.

[Guest smileyguy]

I think that is why they have developed different styles of weapons and ammo.

No doubt. PGO has a place. Military and swat often use them in breeching operations. Then you’ll notice the rest of the team enters with their AR-15s to their shoulder. The more effective way to use a long gun. PGO may be handy working from a vehicle or backpacking in bear country. The problem is that not so knowledgeable people see movies and you tube and think it is the ultimate in HD.

I’m not saying PGO is a piece of crap or useless. I’m confident that I could defend myself with one if need be. You can use what you want, but I choose not to limit myself by using a PGO.

Here’s a picture of a guy with a stocked gun demonstrating that it can be just as compact as a PGO. Holding it a little higher than this guy in the high tuck has been shown to be more accurate than the old hip shooting way seen in movies.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/hip%20shooting/waterhouse/IMGP3279.jpg#

Check out pics 5 and 11. That’s the movie garbage method. They really look like they are gonna hit something. Yeah, I said movie garbage. Just like gangsta movie shooting pistols one handed, cocked to the side. I could hit a target like that. It’s still garbage.

Here’s another girl doing the movie garbage technique, with a stocked weapon by the way.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/DMfX2OuD3ERLn_5-fmw2OA

I wanna see somebody do this hip shooting with their PGO as fast and accurate as these guys.

What I’m saying applies to HD strategy, not bird hunting or GI Joe games. Most of us are adults here. I bring up bird hunting just because it shows that it can’t be done by 99 percent of the population, unless your Patrick Flannigan. It highlights the limitations of the PGO.

Anything that can be done in a HD situation with a PGO, can be done with a stocked gun, but not visa-versa. Again, it’s not that most people can’t defend themselves or comfortably use a PGO, as you seem to think the vote suggests, its that a PGO has no advantage over a stocked gun and it has severe limitations. A PGO user is at a disadvantage to a user of a stocked weapon.

I’m done with this thread. The vote, by far, shows which is the superior weapon. Enough said!

[Desert Rat]

I am glad that you appear to understand your limitations. Although you might just put your self and family members in a hazardous situation by your actions that is your decision. The vote shows which is the preferred weapon of those that voted as it is most comfortable for most people. The majority of the people who own a home defense shotgun do not practice nor have they been taught different methods to use the weapon so they can find what works best for them as not all methods work for everyone. I have stated what works best for me and you claim it is just movie garbage. Come back and talk about it when you grow some experience in real life youngster!

[Mike]

Come back and talk about it when you grow some experience in real life youngster!

This seems to be the default end to your arguments.

Might as well tell us to stay off your lawn while you're at it..

Edited August 28, 2010 by Mike

[Desert Rat]

This just becomes entertainment for an Old F### who really does not give a rats A##! So YEAH Get off My Lawn and stay Off!

[mikegideon]

This just becomes entertainment for an Old F### who really does not give a rats A##! So YEAH Get off My Lawn and stay Off!

Personally, I have no doubt that you're deadly with that PGO. Me, I would wind up shooting the aquarium, and drowning the thug.

[Guest smileyguy]

I thought I was finished, but…

This just becomes entertainment for an Old F### who really does not give a rats A##!

I’m glad you’re entertained. It’s entertaining to a “youngster” too. I too don’t give a rats A## what you use. People choose to use limited weapons every day. A lot of guys here carry 22s. They know the limitations of the weapon and have decided it is acceptable to them, and I would never give them crap for it. Here’s the difference, and what chaps my a##! None of those guys come up in here and insinuate that I or 50 other members lack the coordination, training, comfort level, or experience to use the weapon. Many of the members here are very knowledgeable, very experienced, take training classes, and are competitive shooters. Your insinuations are patently absurd!

I am glad that you appear to understand your limitations.

What I understand is the limitations of the PGO.

Although you might just put your self and family members in a hazardous situation by your actions that is your decision.

Don’t worry about me. I think I’ll manage, especially if some one comes at me with an inferior weapon and tactics.

The vote shows which is the preferred weapon of those that voted as it is most comfortable for most people.

Yeah, it’s comfort and not the limitations of the weapon.

The majority of the people who own a home defense shotgun do not practice nor have they been taught different methods to use the weapon so they can find what works best for them as not all methods work for everyone.

We are not the majority of people. There are some novices here, but there are also many very skilled, knowledgeable members. I think some of the 50 voters can manage a PGO.

I have stated what works best for me and you claim it is just movie garbage.

First, it’s not all about you. The OP has never shot a shotgun. He may not have 40+ years to hone his skills. He may have to defend himself tomorrow. Secondly, I have never met anyone who is more effective with a PGO than a stocked gun. Have you? I doubt it. Test your skills at your next local 3-gun match. I realize it is not the same as HD, but it is a fair measure of general skill level. I’m willing to bet you, nor most anyone, would fare very well using a PGO in the shotgun stage.

Come back and talk about it when you grow some experience in real life youngster!

Experience doesn’t mean sh## without the ability or will to learn and adapt. Doing something the hard way or the less effective way for 40+ years doesn’t make it the best way, it just makes you a stubborn, self-proclaimed “Old F###”.

Good day sir!

Edited August 30, 2010 by smileyguy

[Guest bkelm18]

I smell an internet bully!

I also vote for a standard stock or a stock with a pistol grip. I don't have 349075 years of experience like Desert Rat so I'm incapable of operating a shotgun with only a pistol grip very effectively.

[Mike]

[Desert Rat]

I guess you are right! An internet bully who took offense at a wise a## who claimed that anything but a standard hunting configuration when using a shot gun for home defense is just "MOVIE GARBAGE". When my entire claim was that each individual should try different configurations and get enough practice to be effective with their preferred method. Other wise they should stick to a double barrel or no shot gun at all as they become a hazard to them selves and those around them.

But then I do not need to carry 20 handguns when walking down the road just to feel safe like some on here seem to need. "Cough Cough"

I was taught how to use a shot gun for home defense in the early 70s by the Metro SWAT members and the local FBI SWAT members when they came to the range to practice tactics and I was allowed to practice along with them on "ALL" the weapons they carried.

I can also understand how 35 to 40 years would seem like eternity to a young person who if they were lucky has held and used a weapon for 10 to 15 years!

Edited August 30, 2010 by Desert Rat

[Chucktshoes]

Mine is bigger than yours.

[Guest smileyguy]

Desert Rat,

Sorry this wise a## offended you. My "movie garbage" comment was not aimed at you directly. I never said anything but a standard hunting configuration was garbage. I love pistol grips (with a collapsible stock). Even have a pistol grip on my fore end. Said that in my first post. When you learned from "SWAT" in the 70's, your way was pretty much the only way. Times have changed. Your way, the less effective way, is perpetuated by junk action movies. A lot of new comers now think that is THE way, and never learn the more effective alternative way of using a PGO or that a stocked weapon can be manipulated just like a PGO. Do what you want. Shot a sling shot for all I care. With all your years of experience you oughta know better than to call people wise a## and make false assumptions about there coordination and their experience. 25 years shotgunning by the way. Sure it's not your 1,000x10 squared years, but it's plenty.

chuck – mine’s biggest..lol

One more thing. As to not hurt the feelings of any overly sensitive members and out of fear of being called an uncoordinated, inexperienced, wise a##, I will not refer to a certain tactic used in Hollywood as “movie garbage”. I shall forever more refer to it as the archaic method taught by SWAT and FBI in the 70s but no longer due to the tactic have been “long discredited”. Have a nice day.

Edited August 30, 2010 by smileyguy

[Guest malbolja]

My HD 870 has a fixed youth stock on it. If I run out of shells, I'll beat the SOB to death with it.

I would strongly recommend that you try the Knoxx before you buy. I didn't care for it and didn't perceive much in the way of recoil reduction (neither did a couple of friends who tried it - back to back with a fixed stock 870). Supposedly there is some amount of technique involved in getting the most out of it.

[Kelemvor]

The pump release on a Mossberg is kinda hard to get to with a pistol grip.

[Guest peacexxl]

This is what I love about TGO. lots of great advice until the thread did a downward spiral into a dog fight. Thanks for the offer ChuckTshoes. I would really appreciate it if I could try it out one Saturday.

The youth stock idea is a mild stroke of genius and most likely the route I will be going, especially since my wife is only 5'2".

Thanks for all the help guys.

[cch2a]

I use the Knoxx Spec Ops on my Rem 870 and I like it. Here is a question about shotguns in general for HD. I am used to AR15s/M4s so every time I pick up my 870 it just feels huge and impractical. I just cant imagine clearing rooms in the middle of the night with it when I have other smaller easily manageable options. I do understand why they are good for HD but they just feel off to me when I have my AR right next to it to pick up. I guess I just need to short barrel the 870. Yes I realize at no point did I actually ask a question and now I dont know why I even typed this.

[wjh2657]

After playing around with all kinds of Tech-Cool Rambo-combos. I am back to a basic SD shotgun. Mossy 500 12 Ga. with 18 1/2" bbl, Hogue overmold stock (good grip with wet hands), Trijicon night bead and a LimbEaze recoil pad.

I have patterned all of my shotgun combinations at room range (21-25 ft) and you d*** well better aim if you really intend to hit anything. Shooting with a pistol grip from the hip at that range is like shooting a snubby from the hip at the same distance, more luck than skill.