What if your Wrong

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

No... Not that "Where"

I meant what threads. I think you're lying.

[Guest trigem]

Turn the question around: Which side has more to gain if they're right?

If god is as strict and severe as some would have you believe, then a lot of people are maybe gonna be in deep , and star in their very own BBQ, for all eternity, even if they think they won't.

By the same token, if he/she's more forgiving than that, and willing to give someone a break for basically being a good person even if they're beliefs aren't what others think they should be... where's the loss?

In the end, what an Atheist gains by being right is oblivion, and not having their life judged by anyone or anything when it's over.

What a religious person gains if they're right is to be judged by a set of rules that they may not understand, or that they may not have right.

Either one sounds like as much of a crap shoot as the other to me, with no real advantage over the other.

And never mind that an eternal existence seems like it would turn into it's own special kind of hell, after a while, no matter what the circumstances or surroundings, at least to me. j.

God is a loving God, He cares so much He sent Jesus to take the punishment for everyone's sins, He knows how wicked man is and that man would never make it with out His help...

All those who reject the gift of salvation will stand before God & the Ten commandment!

Lets see if you have broken just a few of the Ten Commandments

1. Have you ever told a lie- If so then your a liar

2. Have you ever looked at another person with lust? God says your guilty of adultery

3. Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours? - That makes you a thief

OK, that's only three of Ten

You would have to be a fool to reject that gift...

It's not about playing church or a denomination, it's a personal relationship with God through Jesus the Christ....

There will be no denominations in Heaven

And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

(Mar 6:10-12)

[mikegideon]

You got me with number 2.

[Guest trigem]

If we're going to have a discussion on this stuff, and not an argument or boring-ass, pointless attempt at convincing other people to think or believe the same as we do, then I've got a few questions that should liven things up:

1.) How old is the particular god you believe in? Has he/she/it always existed?

2.) If they haven't always existed, will they ever end, or are they now eternal?

3.) Does god, as you believe in him/her/it have any limitations? Or are they all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful?

That should do for now, since I'm sure the answers to those three will generate all sorts of other questions themselves.

J.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

He is the only God, He was here at the beginning and He will be here at the End!

He has no limitations, Knows & sees everything and makes notes on your life

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast

and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a

great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;

and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the

dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which

were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell

were

cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the

book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:10-15)

Edited August 25, 2010 by trigem

[Guest Jamie]

God is a loving God, He cares so much He sent Jesus to take the punishment for everyone's sins, He knows how wicked man is and that man would never make it with out His help...

Well, that's your god... or your version of him.

All those who reject the gift of salvation will stand before God & the Ten commandment!

Lets see if you have broken just a few of the Ten Commandments

1. Have you ever told a lie- If so then your a liar

2. Have you ever looked at another person with lust? God says your guilty of adultery

3. Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours? - That makes you a thief

OK, that's only three of Ten

You would have to be a fool to reject that gift...

It's not about playing church or a denomination, it's a personal relationship with God through Jesus the Christ....

There will be no denominations in Heaven

Nobody said anything about denominations. How about all the non-christian religions, that have a god, but no Jesus or 10 commandments? They hell-bound too, in your opinion? ( Don't bother answering, you've made it pretty clear already. )

And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

(Mar 6:10-12)

Once again, you're quoting you own choice of beliefs, with no regard what so ever for anything but the Christian version, and the Christian bible.

You completely disregard anything but that one limited view, from one incomplete, edited-to-no-end book, that can be interpreted in any number of ways.

None for me, thanks.

J.

[Guest jackdm3]

Post #129 is why people easily get turned off by the words of the faithful. It's like you're screaming your point across. The next logical step with someone who's exasperated is to say something in ALL CAPS next time when you think you're not being understood or listened to.

[enfield]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast

and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a

great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;

and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the

dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which

were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell

were

cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the

book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:10-15)

Who wrote that?

[Guest jackdm3]

Who wrote that?

No idear. But I know who said this, " I want your blood. And I want your souls. And I want them both right now!"

[Guest Jamie]

Rev 1:8

Revelations, huh?

I'd have started with Genesis, myself:

Genesis 1

1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8

I'll assume from your answer though that your version of god is eternal, and always has existed, and always will exist.

Now... given the nature of eternity, that means that he sat in the dark, alone, for as long as he can possibly now sit in the light. ( Eternity = no end in either direction, so no beginning, middle, or end . )

That's long time to sit around and think about what to do, then do such a half-ass job with your creations. ( I'm talking about the human race and it's flaws here. )

Also...

He is the only God, He was here at the beginning and He will be here at the End!

He has no limitations, Knows & sees everything and makes notes on your life

The earth, and possibly the human race, are not eternal or infinite, so it only takes having a very long lifespan to see both their beginning and end. And it could very well be that fact that Revelations is alluding to.

And if god has no limitations, and knows and sees everything... well, there's no need for notes, 'cause he already knows how the story is going to go, and how it will end.

...Which also shoots that whole "free will" thing in the ass too, if you're honest and have the intellectual capacity to really think about it and ponder the ramifications.

A side note here: If god created man in his own image, then god has eyes, no?

So... what good are eyes without light? Why would god have them if he is responsible for creating light in the first place? You wanted to question evolution and eyes a while back, try wrapping your mind around answering that one.

Well, there's that much. What's next?

J. ( Are you paying attention, Drew? )

[Guest Jamie]

Who wrote that?

John, I think...

J.

[Guest trigem]

Well, that's your god... or your version of him.

Nobody said anything about denominations. How about all the non-christian religions, that have a god, but no Jesus or 10 commandments? They hell-bound too, in your opinion? ( Don't bother answering, you've made it pretty clear already. )

Once again, you're quoting you own choice of beliefs, with no regard what so ever for anything but the Christian version, and the Christian bible.

You completely disregard anything but that one limited view, from one incomplete, edited-to-no-end book, that can be interpreted in any number of ways.

None for me, thanks.

J.

There is only one view per my Bible, it's all I can comment on, It's not my thinking, it's the Bible, I believe it, ( God is narrow minded )

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(Mat 7:13-14)

[Oh Shoot]

My last statement here, but seriously consider this...

Which side has more to lose by being wrong?

To repeat, how can I honestly believe something I don't honestly believe?

The Big Guy surely would know if I hedged my bets, eh?

"Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me." - Robert Frost

- OS

[Guest trigem]

Revelations, huh?

I'd have started with Genesis, myself:

I'll assume from your answer though that your version of god is eternal, and always has existed, and always will exist.

Now... given the nature of eternity, that means that he sat in the dark, alone, for as long as he can possibly now sit in the light. ( Eternity = no end in either direction, so no beginning, middle, or end . )

That's long time to sit around and think about what to do, then do such a half-ass job with your creations. ( I'm talking about the human race and it's flaws here. )

Also...

The earth, and possibly the human race, are not eternal or infinite, so it only takes having a very long lifespan to see both their beginning and end. And it could very well be that fact that Revelations is alluding to.

And if god has no limitations, and knows and sees everything... well, there's no need for notes, 'cause he already knows how the story is going to go, and how it will end.

...Which also shoots that whole "free will" thing in the ass too, if you're honest and have the intellectual capacity to really think about it and ponder the ramifications.

A side note here: If god created man in his own image, then god has eyes, no?

So... what good are eyes without light? Why would god have them if he is responsible for creating light in the first place? You wanted to question evolution and eyes a while back, try wrapping your mind around answering that one.

Well, there's that much. What's next?

J. ( Are you paying attention, Drew? )

Revelations, huh?

I'd have started with Genesis, myself:

I'll assume from your answer though that your version of god is eternal, and always has existed, and always will exist.

Now... given the nature of eternity, that means that he sat in the dark, alone, for as long as he can possibly now sit in the light. ( Eternity = no end in either direction, so no beginning, middle, or end . )

That's long time to sit around and think about what to do, then do such a half-ass job with your creations. ( I'm talking about the human race and it's flaws here. )

Also...

The earth, and possibly the human race, are not eternal or infinite, so it only takes having a very long lifespan to see both their beginning and end. And it could very well be that fact that Revelations is alluding to.

And if god has no limitations, and knows and sees everything... well, there's no need for notes, 'cause he already knows how the story is going to go, and how it will end.

...Which also shoots that whole "free will" thing in the ass too, if you're honest and have the intellectual capacity to really think about it and ponder the ramifications.

A side note here: If god created man in his own image, then god has eyes, no?

So... what good are eyes without light? Why would god have them if he is responsible for creating light in the first place? You wanted to question evolution and eyes a while back, try wrapping your mind around answering that one.

Well, there's that much. What's next?

J. ( Are you paying attention, Drew? )

Please don't get angry, let's discus our views in peace, I'm not a religious zealot, I just believe the Bible, Just as you don't, We both have one thing in common , we enjoy shooting

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(John 4:24)

There is a spirit world we haven't seen, the bible is clear, There's nothing that says it's dark, where God is He is the light

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

(Rev 22:5)

[Guest Jamie]

There is only one view per my Bible, it's all I can comment on, It's not my thinking, it's the Bible, I believe it, ( God is narrow minded )

Well, thankfully, believing a thing doesn't make it true.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hmm... I wonder what Moses would have to say about that?

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(Mat 7:13-14)

Gotta love those olde English translations...

Sounds like there aren't that many who'll get it right, if that bolded portion is any indication... Which pretty much means even the believers don't necessarily have what it takes to get there. But then, it is speaking in metaphor, and very much subject to interpretation, isn't it?

So... how many Christians are there in this world? And of those, how many are going to get through that "strait gate"?

Then again, since the Bible is a derivative of Judaism, maybe only the Jews will get there...

BTW, here's a little bit of history concerning the Christian Bible:

The Bible And Christianity - The Historical Origins

J.

[Guest trigem]

To repeat, how can I honestly believe something I don't honestly believe?

The Big Guy surely would know if I hedged my bets, eh?

"Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me." - Robert Frost

- OS

At 39 I didn't believe, at 39.5 I asked Him to reveal Him self to me & He did (Long story) If you ever ready want to know the truth, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will,

You will never be the same.

Remember, it's not a religion, it's a personal relationship, I can't earn salvation, it's a free gift to me by the shedding of innocent blood

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(2Co 5:21)

[enfield]

John, I think...

J.

John?

which "John"?

Any old "John" or some particular "John"?

Edited August 26, 2010 by enfield

[Chucktshoes]

Revelations, huh?

I'd have started with Genesis, myself:

I'll assume from your answer though that your version of god is eternal, and always has existed, and always will exist.

Now... given the nature of eternity, that means that he sat in the dark, alone, for as long as he can possibly now sit in the light. ( Eternity = no end in either direction, so no beginning, middle, or end . )

That's long time to sit around and think about what to do, then do such a half-ass job with your creations. ( I'm talking about the human race and it's flaws here. )

Also...

The earth, and possibly the human race, are not eternal or infinite, so it only takes having a very long lifespan to see both their beginning and end. And it could very well be that fact that Revelations is alluding to.

And if god has no limitations, and knows and sees everything... well, there's no need for notes, 'cause he already knows how the story is going to go, and how it will end.

...Which also shoots that whole "free will" thing in the ass too, if you're honest and have the intellectual capacity to really think about it and ponder the ramifications.

A side note here: If god created man in his own image, then god has eyes, no?

So... what good are eyes without light? Why would god have them if he is responsible for creating light in the first place? You wanted to question evolution and eyes a while back, try wrapping your mind around answering that one.

Well, there's that much. What's next?

J. ( Are you paying attention, Drew? )

Some are of the view that the freewill thing was already shot in the ass though not neccessarily for the reasons you mentioned.

[Oh Shoot]

.... If you ever ready want to know the truth, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will,...

The silence has been deafening.

Even long before the tinnitus.

- OS

[mikegideon]

Is this finally over? If so, praise the lord, and pass the ammunition

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

Yes I am, Jamie.

[Guest Jamie]

Please don't get angry, let's discus our views in peace, I'm not a religious zealot, I just believe the Bible, Just as you don't, We both have one thing in common , we enjoy shooting

Now why would you think I'm angry, or that you have any hope of making me angry?

And for what it's worth, I very much believe you are indeed a zealot... just as I believe the same of anyone who accepts anything without question or rational thought, and who will not entertain any thought or possibility that they are wrong, or that there's some other view or explanation. Or someone who only sees one possible side of anything, and fights for that view no matter how irrational it may be.

As for having anything in common... well, yeah, but that's irrelevant to the conversation we're having. I've had the same sort of conversations with people I have nearly noting in common with, and unless that other person decided to turn it otherwise, it stayed peaceful and rational.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(John 4:24)

I'm aware of the "father, son, and holy ghost" business... and also that Jesus was very much human. However, what you've quoted can be interpreted to say "worship fully and honestly. Don't just give it lip service and go through the motions. You have to mean it."

And that, in and of it's self has noting to do with what god is or isn't.

There is a spirit world we haven't seen, the bible is clear, There's nothing that says it's dark, where God is He is the light

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

(Rev 22:5)

Well, it looks like to me what the text is saying is that god is going to provide the light, sort of like Vulcan/Hephaestus gave humans fire. But, especially taken with the first part of Genisis, there's every reason to believe that he is not actually going to glow like a firefly.

Also, don't lose sight of the fact that knowledge is also sometimes referred to as "light" in some texts.

Again, the Bible can be interpreted in many ways... and also contradicts it's self in many places, if one doesn't consider the source, and tries to take it literally.

The fact that it written and edited ( many times ) by men doesn't help things either.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

Is this finally over? If so, praise the lord, and pass the ammunition

Now you know better than that...

J.

[Guest Jamie]

John?

which "John"?

Any old "John" or some particular "John"?

Not sure and not gonna look it up at the moment... I know it's sometimes referred to as "John's Apocalypse" though.

Go poke around here and see if you can find what you're after.

J.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Jamie

[enfield]

It says some person named John.

Probably John Travolta, I'm betting.

[Guest Jamie]

It says some person named John.

Probably John Travolta, I'm betting.

John Travolta was around in 90A.D.?

Wow, he's a lot older than I thought... must be that Scientology crap keepin' him so well preserved.

Oh, and another question for folks to ponder on.... If god created heaven and earth, and everything in it, in only 6 days... all by himself... why did it take him 1500 years and 40 people to write one book? That's what... 75 generations? You'd think he could whip that one out in a few minutes, all on his own...

J.