Obama throws support behind controversial Islamic center

[Garufa]

To me thats a sign of our strength and resolve that they didn't win with 9/11.

In a way they did win.

[Smith]

In a way they did win.

Sadly I have to agree. It's like they scored a touchdown and we kicked a field goal, but we claim a win via moral victory (in sports speak).

[BryanP]

I get so damned tired of the "slippery slope" argument. Political correctness is a web of bull**** that just slows people down from doing what is right. Does anyone even care what is RIGHT or WRONG anymore, or are we so progressive now that we're forbidden from seeing black and white and forced to spend eternity debating shades of gray?

Law has nothing to do with Right and Wrong. It has to do with what rules we have decided upon as a society. Sometimes those rules overlap subjective right and wrong, but not always.

Objectively, this is purely a case of religious freedom and property rights. Those who oppose this have no legal leg to stand on from a religious freedom standpoint. The only way you can stop this legitimately is from a property rights angle. Buy the property.

[mcurrier]

How is showing them we aren't afraid of to put a mosque in downtown NYC a sign of weakness? To me thats a sign of our strength and resolve that they didn't win with 9/11. It would be weak to tell them that they have us so scared that we won't let them anywhere near us.

Last time I checked, there were several mosques in NYC. We don't need one more, most definitely NOT on that piece of property or on that block. Three blocks away...knock yourself out. But, NOT THERE!

By allowing the mosque to be built it would actually be a bigger plus for us and adversely a blow to the extremist line of thinking. If we allow it to continue it takes some of the power out of the rhetoric that they spew to recruit new members. They can't say "Look how America treats Muslims! Join our side!" anymore.

More food for thought Matthew Alexander: Build the Mosque; Help Defeat al Qaeda

You seem to be of like mind with the liberals and the likes of obama STILL saying that we have to continue proving ourselves to these extremist thugs. T.S.! Reminds me of some b.s. sensitivity training class they tried to make us take back in the 80's - "warm fuzzies" and all that spineless blather. We have NOTHING to prove to these psycho's, except DON'T MESS WITH US! (i.e. U.S)

[Mike.357]

How is showing them we aren't afraid of to put a mosque in downtown NYC a sign of weakness? To me thats a sign of our strength and resolve that they didn't win with 9/11. It would be weak to tell them that they have us so scared that we won't let them anywhere near us.

that is the biggest load of twisted crap I have ever read on this board. Screw them people, fine by me to throw every last one of them out of this country. While we are at it, turn the middle east into one big piece of glass. Screw them, their goal is to overtake the world and kill the infidels.

[Garufa]

I am an INFIDEL.

[Guest RevScottie]

Great article on the politics of fear and persecution:

Yuna Shin: "Ground Zero Mosque:" Politics of Fear and Persecution Assail American Character

No matter what anyone says these people are AMERICANS and should have equal rights.

[Smith]

Great article on the politics of fear and persecution:

Yuna Shin: "Ground Zero Mosque:" Politics of Fear and Persecution Assail American Character

No matter what anyone says these people are AMERICANS and should have equal rights.

Their money isn't. Their rhetoric is treasonous and their call is for your destruction. Where are you guys getting this 3rd grade, over simplification, civics mentality from? You want to give them equal rights so that they can take yours. I just can't figure the logic that says I have to use my freedom to sell myself into slavery.How exactly is that supposed to work? Do you guys even understand the concept of freedom?

[setsdw]

that is the biggest load of twisted crap I have ever read on this board. Screw them people, fine by me to throw every last one of them out of this country. While we are at it, turn the middle east into one big piece of glass. Screw them, their goal is to overtake the world and kill the infidels.

Good luck with that man. If you give the government the power to toss citizens out remember that it could be a two way street. Lets just hope you never say anything they don't like and toss you out. Careful who you give absolute power to.

[Guest RevScottie]

Their money isn't. Their rhetoric is treasonous and their call is for your destruction.

The problem with this entire thread is the constant reference to THEY and THEIR and THEIR plans for my destruction. I have a good freind who is a Muslim and he has yet to speak ill against me much less call for my destruction and I would think that a Christian pastor should be high on his hit list. Not all Muslims are the blood thirsty Sharia Law loving terrorists they are being made out to be. If there is any 3rd grade oversimplification it is those who are painting all Muslims with the same broad brush. How many people on this thread even know or have had an in depth conversation with a Muslim?

[setsdw]

Their money isn't. Their rhetoric is treasonous and their call is for your destruction. Where are you guys getting this 3rd grade, over simplification, civics mentality from? You want to give them equal rights so that they can take yours. I just can't figure the logic that says I have to use my freedom to sell myself into slavery.How exactly is that supposed to work? Do you guys even understand the concept of freedom?

How are you going to fall into slavery over this? If they were to try to seize power through force I would be one of the first to load my rifle but this is not the case. I got into a discussion earlier with a friend on just how real the possibility is that Muslims could take over and install a rule under Sharia law. It just isn't probable. If by some improbable chance they were able to gain political power, the process of them dismantling our laws in favor of a Sharia system would take a fundamental change in the very thinking of Americans. Americans love their freedoms and it is inconceivable to think that would easily cast them aside to any ruling party. The Constitution as a mere document vs the Constitutional principals that are ingrained in the majority of Americans are two different things. (Think V for Vendetta). The people themselves wouldn't let that happen even if the government tried. Sharia law is radically different than just a Government system that is sympathetic to Muslims and it just wouldn't stand.

Its still too far fetched for me to lose sleep over.

[Ebow1]

Historically it's the way they work. They are a religion of peace until they have superior numbers.

[Mike.357]

Not all Muslims are the blood thirsty Sharia Law loving terrorists they are being made out to be. If there is any 3rd grade oversimplification it is those who are painting all Muslims with the same broad brush.

yes they are, they are taught to lie and be deceitful to gain their goal of killing all infidels. i do not believe the first word that comes out of a Muslim's mouth. Unless it is a word to try to destroy anything non Muslim. If they are not like this then they are not Muslim. Kind of like Catholics who divorce, remarry and have abortions. You cannot pick and choose parts of a faith to follow and still follow that faith! Show me a Baptist who is a drunk and I will show you a person who is not a baptist. its pretty simple really.

[Smith]

The problem with this entire thread is the constant reference to THEY and THEIR and THEIR plans for my destruction. I have a good freind who is a Muslim and he has yet to speak ill against me much less call for my destruction and I would think that a Christian pastor should be high on his hit list. Not all Muslims are the blood thirsty Sharia Law loving terrorists they are being made out to be. If there is any 3rd grade oversimplification it is those who are painting all Muslims with the same broad brush. How many people on this thread even know or have had an in depth conversation with a Muslim?

Problem Scottie, is people are trying to fight our enemy the same way they are trying to fight the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. You can't create multifaceted fronts with varying degress of response depending on arbitrary factors or the word of the opposition. You draw a line in the sand and say right is right, wrong is wrong ....pick a side. Be Muslim all you won't but understand that is secondary and sub servant to what is right.

BTW - I have talked and dealt with Muslims around the world. UAE, England, Brazil, and here in the US and my personal experiences have no bearing on the whole of the issue. Again forest because of the trees. It's like someone saying I'm a Nazi, but I'm not one of the bad ones. You tie yourself to an ideology, you tie yourself to all of it.

[Smith]

How are you going to fall into slavery over this? If they were to try to seize power through force I would be one of the first to load my rifle but this is not the case. I got into a discussion earlier with a friend on just how real the possibility is that Muslims could take over and install a rule under Sharia law. It just isn't probable. If by some improbable chance they were able to gain political power, the process of them dismantling our laws in favor of a Sharia system would take a fundamental change in the very thinking of Americans. Americans love their freedoms and it is inconceivable to think that would easily cast them aside to any ruling party. The Constitution as a mere document vs the Constitutional principals that are ingrained in the majority of Americans are two different things. (Think V for Vendetta). The people themselves wouldn't let that happen even if the government tried. Sharia law is radically different than just a Government system that is sympathetic to Muslims and it just wouldn't stand.

Its still too far fetched for me to lose sleep over.

Spain, England, France, Turkey, Bosnia, Darfour .... are on the same path Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt already took. These weren't Muslim countries prior. They were actually very friendly to the west. This is very basic world history. Heck, Mexico has the same strategy, power through population. It is a known and tried tactic. We fought the Mexican-American war because of it the first time they tried it.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Smith

[strickj]

John 8:7

...Or, he without violence in his religion cast the first stone....

[Guest mahahn]

http://www.islamoncapitolhill.com/

[Mike.357]

Nate you have a nice way with words

[setsdw]

John 8:7

...Or, he without violence in his religion cast the first stone....

+1

[Smith]

John 8:7

...Or, he without violence in his religion cast the first stone....

in the words of Inigo Montoya,

[setsdw]

Spain, England, France, Turkey, Bosnia, Darfour .... are on the same path Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt already took. These weren't Muslim countries prior. They were actually very friendly to the west. This is very basic world history. Heck, Mexico has the same strategy, power through population. It is a known and tried tactic. We fought the Mexican-American war because of it the first time they tried it.

I have a friend who lives in England and another who just spent the summer in France. Not sure where you get that they on their way towards Sharia rule but neither one of them have seen it. Can't speak for Spain but Turkey has had a greater than 97% Muslim population for centuries. As for Bosnia and Darfur those are 3rd world countries and any comparison of them to the US is irrelevant.

Basic world history? You've got some things backward. The Mexican-American War was fought over our the American settlements in Mexican territory and our attempt at annexation. It had nothing to do with lots of Mexicans moving in trying to gain power. It was exactly the opposite

[Smith]

I have a friend who lives in England and another who just spent the summer in France. Not sure where you get that they on their way towards Sharia rule but neither one of them have seen it. Can't speak for Spain but Turkey has had a greater than 97% Muslim population for centuries. As for Bosnia and Darfur those are 3rd world countries and any comparison of them to the US is irrelevant.

Basic world history? You've got some things backward. The Mexican-American War was fought over our the American settlements in Mexican territory and our attempt at annexation. It had nothing to do with lots of Mexicans moving in trying to gain power. It was exactly the opposite

You're right. Your friends qualify as expert witness to the state of those countries. You need to read my post in which you reference the Mexican American war. Mexico was attempting to control those disputed territories through population settlements. It was a well know plan of Mexico to gain power over those territories through shear population numbers. They thought they could avoid having to buy or fight over land this way and simply declare it was Mexican since it was inhabited by Mexicans. Islamic leaders have made it very clear they are following the same game plan.

"None so blind as he who refuses to see.";)

[setsdw]

You're right. Your friends qualify as expert witness to the state of those countries. You need to read my post in which you reference the Mexican American war. Mexico was attempting to control those disputed territories through population settlements. It was a well know plan of Mexico to gain power over those territories through shear population numbers. They thought they could avoid having to buy or fight over land this way and simply declare it was Mexican since it was inhabited by Mexicans. Islamic leaders have made it very clear they are following the same game plan.

"None so blind as he who refuses to see.";)

Just as much of experts as a guy on a gun forum who doesn't cite his sources.

Still not sure where you are getting your info on the Mexican War but you've got it backwards. The war was fought over our attempts to control thorough population settlements not the other way around. Mexico was already in possession of the territories. Stephen Austin brought in over 300 American families in the attempt and in 1829 Mexico outlawed further immigration because the Americans were outnumbering the native Mexicans. So if the Islamic leaders are following that example as you say(which they are doing a great job with consider the US has a 1.5% Muslim population that is growing at .03% at it's best year) we were the ones who best employed it.

[Smith]

Just as much of experts as a guy on a gun forum who doesn't cite his sources.

Still not sure where you are getting your info on the Mexican War but you've got it backwards. The war was fought over our attempts to control thorough population settlements not the other way around. Mexico was already in possession of the territories. Stephen Austin brought in over 300 American families in the attempt and in 1829 Mexico outlawed further immigration because the Americans were outnumbering the native Mexicans. So if the Islamic leaders are following that example as you say(which they are doing a great job with consider the US has a 1.5% Muslim population that is growing at .03% at it's best year) we were the ones who best employed it.

This isn't a research paper and I have yet to see anyone use the Chicago Manual of Style in a post.

Again, I wasn't assigning a right or wrong in the Mexican-American war simply that Mexico tried it once in the disputed territories of NM, NV, CO, and CA (BTW - they were not Mexican. They were held in Spain and Mexico was levering them against the debt they owed us) the same as they are trying it now and that the parallels are no different than with European Muslims and the current situation on the border today in that regard. The fact that the US used a similar tactic in the 1840's is irrelevant and doesn't change my point or historical reference. I originally assigned no blame only the conditions and parallels. Your assumption that I was is why we are completely off topic.

No they are not exactly the same, but have similar traits that illustrate my earlier on topic point.

[Smith]

BTW - my source is my friend Ahmed from Egypt. How's that for citing a source.

Eh, I'll leave it alone. I said more than I wanted or needed to.