Proof of Im

[wjh2657]

Several Tennessee Legislators are considering an Arizona type immigration bill. While I personally am in great favor of more stringent enforcement of the immigration laws, I have come across a very sobering implication in this type of bill. In essence it gives the right to any LEO/LEA to arrest you in the event that you have questionable immigration status. In fact what they are doing is checking to see if you are an American citizen and if not, whether you have the right to be here legally. Sounds good and I am all for it. The basic premise is if you cannot prove you are an American citizen, the LEO is then bound by law to ask for your immigration papers. If are not carrying them, he arrests you. Here lies the problem. Arizona requires that you produce Proof of Citizenship (Passport or State Issued Birth Certificate, not a copy!) to be issued an Arizona Driver’s License. Ergo, Arizona DL is proof of Citizenship.

Tennessee does not require proof of Citizenship for DL, thus DL cannot be used to prove you are Citizen.

Others:

Military Retired ID: Proof only if you were or are a Commissioned or Warrant Officer (Enlisted do not have to be Citizens)

Social Security Card (Aliens can have Social Security cards!)

Voter Registration (you can file by mail and lie about status, no check is made.)

As near as I can tell, the only document issued by the state that requires Proof of Citizenship is the HCP! This covers me but not mom or the kids.

The only Federal IDs that can be used are The State issued Birth Certificate or a Passport.

So what if you don’t have a HCP or are travelling out of state where their HCP doesn’t require POC?

The argument that the Officer has to have due cause to suspect you is moot as a lack of proper ID fulfills due cause. Arguing that a middle aged white guy can’t be an illegal immigrant gets you into trouble with a whole bunch of more agencies! The LEA can lock you up until somebody brings the proper documents to them. How many have a state issued Birth Certificate or a passport already sitting at home? And how far away is home, who gets to make the decision to release you once the papers arrive(LEA or a Court?) You could be cooling your heels in a local hoosegow for some time before mom gets back with your ID. It took me 45 days just to get my Birth Certificate for my HCP!

What is in your wallet?

Edited July 31, 2010 by wjh2657

[Oh Shoot]

Tennessee does not require proof of Citizenship for DL, thus DL cannot be used to prove you are Citizen....

???

From:

Regular (Class D) License

Instructions for new or returning Tennessee resident

New residents and returning residents who need to exchange the license from their former state of residence must present:

• Your current license (or certified copy of driving record or other acceptable ID).
  (The certified copy of your driving record, known as a Motor Vehicle Record (MVR), must be an original (no photocopies) and issued no more than 30 days prior to your Tennessee application date.)
  
• Proof of name change, such as original certified court order, marriage certificate, or divorce decree.
  
• Two Proofs of Tennessee Residency with your name and resident address - NO P.O. BOXES (Documents must be current. Must be dated within last 4 months.)
  
• Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States
  
• A Social Security Number or sworn affidavit if no Social Security number has been issued.
  
• All new or returning residents must take a Tennessee vision screening at the driver service center. There are certain exceptions for commercial driver license holders.
  
• New or returning residents whose out of state license has been expired for more than six months must take the Tennessee knowledge test, road skills test, and vision screening.
  
• All new or returning residents must surrender their out-of-state license at time of application for Tennessee license. Tennessee law does not allow a resident of this state to hold more than one valid driver license or ID (only foreign country licenses/IDs may be retained).
  

What documents will you need to bring?

PLEASE NOTE: All documents are subject to verification with the issuing agency or source. Documents subject to verification may delay the issuance of your permit, driver license or identification only license.

No photocopies will be accepted!

For a Regular Class D Driver License you will need:

• Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States
  
• Primary Proof of Identity
  
• Secondary Proof of Identity
  
• Proof of any Name Changes if Different than name on Primary ID
  
• Two Proofs of Tennessee Residency with your name and resident address - NO P.O. BOXES (Documents must be current. Must be dated within last 4 months.)
  
• A Social Security Number or sworn affidavit if no Social Security number has been issued.
  

- OS

[mikegideon]

???

From:

Regular (Class D) License

Instructions for new or returning Tennessee resident

New residents and returning residents who need to exchange the license from their former state of residence must present:

• Your current license (or certified copy of driving record or other acceptable ID).
  (The certified copy of your driving record, known as a Motor Vehicle Record (MVR), must be an original (no photocopies) and issued no more than 30 days prior to your Tennessee application date.)
  
• Proof of name change, such as original certified court order, marriage certificate, or divorce decree.
  
• Two Proofs of Tennessee Residency with your name and resident address - NO P.O. BOXES (Documents must be current. Must be dated within last 4 months.)
  
• Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States
  
• A Social Security Number or sworn affidavit if no Social Security number has been issued.
  
• All new or returning residents must take a Tennessee vision screening at the driver service center. There are certain exceptions for commercial driver license holders.
  
• New or returning residents whose out of state license has been expired for more than six months must take the Tennessee knowledge test, road skills test, and vision screening.
  
• All new or returning residents must surrender their out-of-state license at time of application for Tennessee license. Tennessee law does not allow a resident of this state to hold more than one valid driver license or ID (only foreign country licenses/IDs may be retained).
  

What documents will you need to bring?

PLEASE NOTE: All documents are subject to verification with the issuing agency or source. Documents subject to verification may delay the issuance of your permit, driver license or identification only license.

No photocopies will be accepted!

For a Regular Class D Driver License you will need:

• Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States
  
• Primary Proof of Identity
  
• Secondary Proof of Identity
  
• Proof of any Name Changes if Different than name on Primary ID
  
• Two Proofs of Tennessee Residency with your name and resident address - NO P.O. BOXES (Documents must be current. Must be dated within last 4 months.)
  
• A Social Security Number or sworn affidavit if no Social Security number has been issued.
  

- OS

And once again for your HCP

[TNRobocop]

What the hell is the OP smoking?

The entire post is one rambling confusion...

[wjh2657]

"*Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States "

Just proved my point. Any Foreign visitor with a visa or Green Card can get a TN DL. These are exactly the people that are supposed to be checked for supporting paperwork. TN DL does not state they are a person who is an American Citizen.

Not smoking anything, just presenting a point. Most of us could not prove we are American Citizens legally with what ID we normally carry. It is just something most people don't think about. You know you were born here but do you have something on you that proves it? Until they can provide something that is recognized throughout the US on our state IDs (Listing citizenship) we would have to carry a passport (card or book) or our Birth Certificates. By the way, I have two in-laws who are Columbian citizens and have TN DLs, along with their green cards. Answer, of course would be putting citizenship on DL. as does Arizona. Easy fix.

[mikegideon]

What the hell is the OP smoking?

The entire post is one rambling confusion...

If you look long enough, you can find ANYTHING on the internet

[mikegideon]

"*Proof of U.S. Citizenship, Lawful Permanent Resident Status or Proof of authorized stay in the United States "

Just proved my point. Any Foreign visitor with a visa or Green Card can get a TN DL. These are exactly the people that are supposed to be checked for supporting paperwork. TN DL does not state they are a person who is an American Citizen.

Not smoking anything, just presenting a point. Most of us could not prove we are American Citizens legally with what ID we normally carry. It is just something most people don't think about. You know you were born here but do you have something on you that proves it? Until they can provide something that is recognized throughout the US on our state IDs (Listing citizenship) we would have to carry a passport (card or book) or our Birth Certificates. By the way, I have two in-laws who are Columbian citizens and have TN DLs, along with their green cards. Answer, of course would be putting citizenship on DL. as does Arizona. Easy fix.

Well, at least you know we're US citizens because of our characteristic short attention spans . We all have HCP's, and you gotta prove citizenship for that.

I heard rumblings about TN giving out driver licenses to green card holders. I think you're right.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, at least you know we're US citizens because of our characteristic short attention spans . We all have HCP's, and you gotta prove citizenship for that.

I heard rumblings about TN giving out driver licenses to green card holders. I think you're right.

WTF.

Whole AZ thing and the TN thing OP is talking about is simply to prove that you are in the country legally, not that you are actually a citizen.

You can get a DL without being a citizen, and you can also get an HCP without being a citizen. But in both cases, you must have legal status to be here.

- OS

[JayC]

I think his issue is with the "Papers please" impact such a law can have on regular citizens. Who could be subject to detainment if they don't have the correct documentation on them. I'm all for solving the immigration problem in this country, but there are much simpler methods to solve it without requiring all citizens to carry around papers. We currently don't have a stop and id law in this state for a reason... This law would change that. (And that is not a good thing)

[Pain103]

Unless they have changed the bill in TN the last I heard was it would make it mandatory for the jails to verify immigration/citizenship status. There was nothing in the bill I viewed about police officers/Sheriff's Patrol Deputies detaining or questioning anyone because of citizenship.

[Guest Ghostrider]

When I travel, my passport is ALWAYS in my brief case, and the brief case is always in the car with me, or in the office with me.

I also have my DL (originally issued in 1970!!!) and all my cards and everything else.

I'd like to see the "proof of citizenship" or at least "proof of identity" statue enforced across the board. I'm so sick of all the thugs and hoods not having ID and giving fake names and crap I could scream.

Exit question: Who goes out without their ID, ever?

[Guest strelcevina]

When I travel, my passport is ALWAYS in my brief case, and the brief case is always in the car with me, or in the office with me.

I also have my DL (originally issued in 1970!!!) and all my cards and everything else.

I'd like to see the "proof of citizenship" or at least "proof of identity" statue enforced across the board. I'm so sick of all the thugs and hoods not having ID and giving fake names and crap I could scream.

Exit question: Who goes out without their ID, ever?

And I was wondering who is a guy walking with a briefcase .

Seriously imagine Arab looking guy holding a same briefcase close to him, reason being he has all important documents are in there. Can u imagine panic he would cause by doing same thing u do.

Why should I carry a passport if I won't to go bike riding.

And can u imagine a power Leo would have.

What you don't agree for a car search, let me see a passport.

BTW. What if somebody takes ur briefcase or u forget it somewhere and cops stops you for whatever reason.

[Mike.357]

If getting rid of illegals means we need to carry papers I am alright with that. but only if the illegals get thrown out on their ear.

Of course with the gov't involved it would be all f'd up. Average white guys would get deported and my lawn guy who is an illegal would get away with it.

( I have no lawn guy)

[Desert Rat]

I have carried some form of legal identification with me since the mid 60s and in some incidences I needed 2 forms of legal identification. It is common practice for me to have some form of identification on me when I am away from the house but I tend to be forgetful lately. I think some form of legal identification is a good idea and those that abuse it should be separated from the rest. Then I have walked among those I would consider lawless as my job required that I saw and heard nothing but what was related to business and that I had no opinion while at work unless it related to business. There was no politics, no religion, and no good or evil. It was just business.

[Guest clownsdd]

All the bs about the AZ law (I do agree with it) but, like the existing laws on the books for other crimes, if the US gubment would just ENFORCE them fully, the problem would be far less than it is. The gubment has stated that they are not chasing the "little fish" coming into this country to work, but are going after the "big fish". Kinda like your local PD saying we are not going after trespasser, we are going after more "criminal" people.

[JayC]

If getting rid of illegals means we need to carry papers I am alright with that. but only if the illegals get thrown out on their ear.

Of course with the gov't involved it would be all f'd up. Average white guys would get deported and my lawn guy who is an illegal would get away with it.

( I have no lawn guy)

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin.

Again, there are other better ways to solve the problem that don't require that we give up liberty and have to turn this country into a complete police state where you must carry papers everywhere you go. And honestly if the government didn't require a carry permit, I'd be without ID a lot of the time.

[Guest strelcevina]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin.

Again, there are other better ways to solve the problem that don't require that we give up liberty and have to turn this country into a complete police state where you must carry papers everywhere you go. And honestly if the government didn't require a carry permit, I'd be without ID a lot of the time.

i couldn't agree more.

it is funny how people here are preaching all this liberty and freedoms, and all of them supporting new AZ law witch takes all essentials liberty's away from people.

and reason is that they don't and never will live in Arizona, so nobody is directly effected from this law.

[Mike.357]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin.

Again, there are other better ways to solve the problem that don't require that we give up liberty and have to turn this country into a complete police state where you must carry papers everywhere you go. And honestly if the government didn't require a carry permit, I'd be without ID a lot of the time.

I am not sure how having proof of citizenship, or proof someone is in the country legally is giving up essential liberty.

In this day and age it is foolishness to not carry some sort of ID, it is also irresponsible to not have ID if you have loved ones who will wonder where you are if you do not come home on time.

[Mike.357]

i couldn't agree more.

it is funny how people here are preaching all this liberty and freedoms, and all of them supporting new AZ law witch takes all essentials liberty's away from people.

and reason is that they don't and never will live in Arizona, so nobody is directly effected from this law.

so 'splain how the AZ law takes ALL essential liberties away from people? Really it takes away all of our liberty? I do not have to live in AZ to be affected by what is happening out there. Where do you think the illegal immigrants in TN are coming from? I would venture a good portion of them are the people invading Arizona.

[Guest strelcevina]

so 'splain how the AZ law takes ALL essential liberties away from people? Really it takes away all of our liberty? I do not have to live in AZ to be affected by what is happening out there. Where do you think the illegal immigrants in TN are coming from? I would venture a good portion of them are the people invading Arizona.

Arizona has 30+% of Latinos.

and if you didn't noticed they look exactly a same as Illegals Latinos.

so from 10 Latinos about 1 of them will be illegal immigrant.

Can you see a problem.

it is like giving Legal Latinos Red Armband so we can recognize them on the street ,and illegals Latinos should have White ones.

and that is how we give away our liberty.

Anyway it is well known fact that WT and Rednecks do Meth "methamphetamine" and cook it at their trailers cars etc,etc.

and like we all know Meth is killing our kids all over U.S.

so how about use that Arizona law and have all white people looking like WT or rednecks prove that they don't have Meth lab in their homes.

Mike waht would you say, if you take a swimming trip to the lake, with your Latino family member and police stops you just becouse they wont you to prove that you don't have meth lab and your family member have to prove they legal status.

how would that make you feel?

[Pain103]

Did the law say anything about stop and detain someone because they appeared to be Hispanic? I don't recall ever reading that, maybe it's what the scary libos are trying to pass but that wasn't it. What I found it to say "Stipulates that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state."

That means I have a lawful detention of a subject but he doesn't have any form of ID other than lets say a Guatemalan card and doesn't have a social security number. CLUE! I would then check immigration status, since I believe all US citizens above a certain age have a SSN.

[Guest nozzle13]

Arizona has 30+% of Latinos.

and if you didn't noticed they look exactly a same as Illegals Latinos.

so from 10 Latinos about 1 of them will be illegal immigrant.

Can you see a problem.

it is like giving Legal Latinos Red Armband so we can recognize them on the street ,and illegals Latinos should have White ones.

and that is how we give away our liberty.

Anyway it is well known fact that WT and Rednecks do Meth "methamphetamine" and cook it at their trailers cars etc,etc.

and like we all know Meth is killing our kids all over U.S.

so how about use that Arizona law and have all white people looking like WT or rednecks prove that they don't have Meth lab in their homes.

Mike waht would you say, if you take a swimming trip to the lake, with your Latino family member and police stops you just becouse they wont you to prove that you don't have meth lab and your family member have to prove they legal status.

how would that make you feel?

Well, if you want to make a little meth, guess what? You have to show your ID, at least to buy the pseudoephedrine. So technically we aught to all be throwing a fit about profiling every time we have a snotty nose.

So what's your point?

[JayC]

I am not sure how having proof of citizenship, or proof someone is in the country legally is giving up essential liberty.

In this day and age it is foolishness to not carry some sort of ID, it is also irresponsible to not have ID if you have loved ones who will wonder where you are if you do not come home on time.

I and you should be free to not require ID to move around the country, it's called privacy and I personally like having the ability to move around without the government knowing my where abouts...

How is it foolish to not carry ID (other than because we're required to because of a HCP because I don't go anywhere unarmed)? Having the ID on you don't solve a single one of the problems you described... I make sure the people who love me know where I'm at, what I'm doing, and when I'll be home already, and having a bit of plastic in my wallet with my face on it doesn't change that fact... what happens to you if your wallet is lost of stolen? Having ID on you is not a responsibility issue at all.

Allowing a police officer to come up to you and ask for an ID with no probable cause or reasonable suspension that you're violating the law is a violation of your liberty.

And what exactly do you get for your trouble? The police in TN today knowingly let illegal immigrants go without holding them for deportation... We KNOWINGLY provide a free education, and free non-emergency health care to illegal immigrants in this state... We are happy as a state to continue to allow illegal immigrants to commit felony identity theft in order to get a job, and/or other government services...

We don't need a new show ID law to get illegals to leave TN... We can solve this problem without having to trample on citizens rights further.

[Pain103]

The police in TN today knowingly let illegal immigrants go without holding them for deportation....

Maybe if you knew more than just making statements you would know that being in the country illegally is a violation of Federal Law not state law. As in most states your police officers are only able to enforce State, County, and Municipal laws/ordinances. That is what Arizona was trying to do make it a violation of state law so officers could enforce it. Yep I run into illegal immigrants a lot and can't do a damn thing to them for it not because I don't wish to prosecute but because I can't. Here in Davidson County the jail takes part in the 287g program if they determine someone is illegal they hold for ICE. But it is up to ICE to make sure they are deported.

[Mike.357]

I and you should be free to not require ID to move around the country, it's called privacy and I personally like having the ability to move around without the government knowing my where abouts...

How is it foolish to not carry ID (other than because we're required to because of a HCP because I don't go anywhere unarmed)? Having the ID on you don't solve a single one of the problems you described... I make sure the people who love me know where I'm at, what I'm doing, and when I'll be home already, and having a bit of plastic in my wallet with my face on it doesn't change that fact... what happens to you if your wallet is lost of stolen? Having ID on you is not a responsibility issue at all.

Allowing a police officer to come up to you and ask for an ID with no probable cause or reasonable suspension that you're violating the law is a violation of your liberty.

And what exactly do you get for your trouble? The police in TN today knowingly let illegal immigrants go without holding them for deportation... We KNOWINGLY provide a free education, and free non-emergency health care to illegal immigrants in this state... We are happy as a state to continue to allow illegal immigrants to commit felony identity theft in order to get a job, and/or other government services...

We don't need a new show ID law to get illegals to leave TN... We can solve this problem without having to trample on citizens rights further.

No where in that law were police allowed to approach anyone and demand ID or proof that they are here legally. Only if they were stopped for some violation of law.

There is federal law to prevent this stuff, the Fed's are refusing to enforce it. AZ was attempting to right this situation

The AZ law is an attempt tp stop the problem where it originates.

I am still not sure how the law there was trampling on anyones rights.