Just out of curiousity

[mav]

Hey folks. Considering I'm still new to handguns (bought my first last year), I had a question of grouping. Starting back in Jan 2010, I started going a shooting range to learn how to shoot a handgun. Three different range memberships, 10 plus private lessons, 11 handguns, and over 7000 rounds shot down range later, I'm still working towards being a better shot.

While I have certainly improved (this it what I did today)

Ruger Mark III Hunter (modified with a Volquartzen Accurizer and Volquartzen grips)

Range = 11-12 yards; 10 shots

Ammo = CCI MiniMags

Sig Sauer P226 X-Five L1

Range = 11-12 yards; 10 shots

Ammo = Blazer

That is almost as good as I can do. Now I know I am still new to handgun shooting, but it seems that everyone I meet claims do things that seem somewhat miraculous. I constantly hear of 1 inch groupings at 25 yards (sometime 50 yards) with a $400 - 500 handgun. I know this is certainly possible and it is done in competition everyday, but is it possible with so many people? Going to the range 3 to 4 times a week allows me to see a bunch of people's targets, and I just ain't seeing it.

While I will continue to put in the range time to improve my ability (hope to do some competing in the future), it gets a little frustrating to feel so far behind. So my question to you more experienced shooters is, are most of these people just full of it and/or do I suck that bad?

[Guest bkelm18]

They're full of it. I've met very few shooters who can actually put all shots in 1" at 25 yds without using a rest.

[jeremy155rr]

They're full of it. I've met very few shooters who can actually put all shots in 1" at 25 yds without using a rest.

I've met none. Those grouping are fabulous man. You want better than that your getting into the science of the accuracy game. Breathing control, trigger control, and sight picture. So you have a couple strays with the .22. Without those it appears to be close to a 1" group assuming thats a 2x2 square. Scoure the interwebz for bullseye competition tips, theres probably some good tips on here from tgo members as well.

[hipower]

Yes, that's some seriously good shooting. Don't think that you are not competative with 80+% or more of all the normal guys you'll meet. Sure, there are some absolutely fabulous shooters out there, but they are shooting for the manufacturers and getting paid to spend all their lives doing it.

Edited July 26, 2010 by hipower

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I've never shot that good, and lately it seems to be going backwards with weekly practice.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

I am also still new to this stuff having bought my first handgun early last year. What you posted would be a good day for me. For awhile I was making the range several times a week and was seeing some really good improvement. Lately though with a lot of other stuff going on I dont get to shoot as often as I was or as often as I would like and it certainly does show when I do get to go.

But all in all I have only seen a few that shoot all that much better than what you posted or what I can do after several trips to the range without too many days in between. One of them only shoots a .22 target pistol and always with a rest. The very best shooters I have seen are the guys who work at the range and come in early most days to shoot. So I do believe it is Practice Practice Practice that will get us better and better.

I also think that during a self defense situation that getting all our shots into COM is more important that the actual size of the group and the shots being a few inches apart but still all being COM hits may well be better to stop BG much quicker due to blood loss and the possibility of hitting more vitals, unless of course we can make a good head shot during the confrontation.

So at least IMHO you are doing just fine and will only get better over time.

I have seen some pretty horrible shooters while at the range and even went to HCP class with two who failed the shooting portion. One of those passed on the re-shoot but then flunked the written test. So all in all I think you are doing just fine.

Just keep on a'shootin.

[Desert Rat]

I could have probably matched your shooting when I was in my twenties and shot 3 to 4 times a week. But that was then and now if I get one or two out of 7 close I am happy. I have met and shot with the ones that get 1 to 2 inch groups at 25 or 50 yards with a match grade pistol and match grade hand loaded ammo. I have heard claims of 1 inch at 100 yards with a FN fiveseven but I can not even see the bulls eye at 100 yards unaided. For more accuracy I would transfer to the 5.7 platform as it is flatter and I get tighter groups. I am not a rimfire fan for more than plinking.

[-boatman-]

You should be proud of that. I wish I could do that good.

[kb4ns]

You should be proud of that. I wish I could do that good.

Same here!

I can put all my shots in 1" at 25 yards. Provided I only make one shot!

[mav]

For more accuracy I would transfer to the 5.7 platform as it is flatter and I get tighter groups.

I have a five seven. It was the first handgun I ever bought and what I used to qualify for my HCP. Yes, the five seven is very accurate, but I find it hard to take really tight groupings with it. It could be do to the weight (very light) of the gun or the very large grip. Or it could be that I don't practice with it (haven't shot it in months) due to the high ammo cost.

What I am learning is that it is easier to to make really accurate shots with some handguns vs. others. My 1911s, X-Five, and Mark III Hunter are a lot easier to make tight groups. My FNP-45, FNP-9, and H&K USP 40 are not so easy. The trigger on the latter three make it very difficult. Guess I need to practice more with them.

[Desert Rat]

I found 5.7 Ammo for 38 cents a round bought in bulk. As for the differences between guns I agree as I had to change the grips on my guns in the 70s as they were not large enough and I am more comfortable withe the larger grips of the 5.7 and the full sized Kimbers. I do not shoot for accuracy now as I am lucky to get the shots within 6 inches at 25 yrads with any thing other than the 5.7. I am shooting for defense practice so 7 yards is about the limit with 25 occasionally if I am stabilized by a tree or bench. Wild 2 liter soda bottles are my most active victims because you never know when a soda bottle will go on a rampage therefore I attempt to keep the population down.

[tyguy]

I'm neither an "old timer" or extremely experienced, but a buddy and I have been doing dome rimfire ammo comparisoins with rfles, and I would say that the groups in your pictures are starting to get close to the capability of your ammo. Prob some room to improve on your side, but you may be seeing some significant ammo influence too. Hell, I think you're doing great! I'm having trouble getting those groups at 50 with a rifle and 9x scope! .

[tnhawk]

Marksmanship is often like golf, fishing or politics.

[timcalhoun]

While shooting good slow fire groups is a good start and a necessary skill to have, it has almost nothing to do with handgun application unless you are hunter or a bullseye shooter. Most carry a pistol to protect themselves and/or others, if this is you, and slow fire group shooting is mainly what you practice, you're almost better off not carrying a gun.

Your goal should be this at 25yds: Draw and fire six rounds on a 25yd target keeping all 6 rounds in the A or 0 zone of a USPSA or IDPA target in under 4 seconds. If you can do that then you have something that can truly apply to your HCP and carrying in general.

[I_Like_Pie]

They're full of it. I've met very few shooters who can actually put all shots in 1" at 25 yds without using a rest.

This is truth. Anyone who claims to put standing 1" at 25 yards is lying to you. If they aren't lying - they are likely to be nationally renowned as a shooting personality. Jerry Miculek couldn't do it....I would put money on it.

[gregintenn]

I constantly hear of 1 inch groupings at 25 yards (sometime 50 yards) with a $400 - 500 handgun.

Sounds like BS to me. Try and schedule a trip to the range with them so they can exhibit their exceptional ability and watch the excuses ensue. You did some very,very good shooting.

[Mike.357]

your shooting looks good to me.

If I can put shots into a paper plate at ten yards I am happy.

You might want to try point shooting and see how many shots you can get COM without aiming down the sights. To me that seperates the men from the boys when it comes to shooting.

[gregintenn]

I've met many fine marksmen at gun stores. They really thin out when you get to the range.

[guyandarifle]

Google your way around some gun tests and see how many professional gun testers claim 1" groups at 25yds with nearly anything. And even THAT doesn't take into account that the majority of gun writers are, if anything, going to fudge to the "this pistol provided to me by a paid advertiser" being more accurate.

Here's just one example I trotted up quickly. This is from a guy that gets paid to shoot God knows how many rounds through all manner of pistols all the time. Now look at what the accuracy chart shows. With his best efforts through a high quality S&W he was able to keep 5 out of thirteen loads at less than 2", nevermind 1".

Lipsey’s Exclusive 357 Magnum Smith & Wesson Model 686 Mountain Gun

The only real advice I can give you that I know worked for me is that, for me, gripping the pistol like I meant it seemed to keep me more consistent. The other thing was to really, and I mean REALLY get on the front sight. When I'm really trying to shoot small I focus on the front sight like I'm trying to remove a hot girls bikini via telepathy. Yes it fuzzes up the target but with a little practice you know where the target is...you're going to actually put bullets where the sights are pointed.

Oh, and I dry fire... A LOT. (and for God's sake man make sure, SURE, your gun isn't loaded before you do that)

[Kegger]

Marksmanship is often like golf, fishing or politics.

Gets better the more I drink?

[Alpha13]

For more accuracy I would transfer to the 5.7 platform as it is flatter and I get tighter groups.

Please forgive the ignorance but what is a 5.7 platform?

Thanks

[mav]

Thanks for the comments everyone. They have certainly been helpful.

While shooting good slow fire groups is a good start and a necessary skill to have, it has almost nothing to do with handgun application unless you are hunter or a bullseye shooter. Most carry a pistol to protect themselves and/or others, if this is you, and slow fire group shooting is mainly what you practice, you're almost better off not carrying a gun.

I was taught to shoot for accuracy during my very first lesson. Before I started takeing lessons, my groups were were huge even at 3 yards (and I thought I was doing well). I continue to take lessons from one of our LEO on a biweekly basis. While I have learned many different techniques (last Saturday was learning to shoot with a flashlight) in regards to practical handgun shooting, I still continue to practice the slow tight group shooting. The rest of the time, I work on rapid fire, double taps, body armor drills, one hand drills, etc... I just ordered Brian Enos' book on Practical Shooting. I hope to learn some new stuff there too.

Please forgive the ignorance but what is a 5.7 platform?

Thanks

The 5.7 platform is one or two things. A FNH Five Seven handgun or FNH PS-90 rifle. In this case, he was referring to the handgun. The 5.7 is a 5.7x28 mm cartridge. It is a very small bullet traveling at almost 2000 fps. Although this is debatable, I have heard that the 5.7 is supposed to have a flat trajectory at 100 yards. I've never tested that claim due to it is way beyond my ability. 5.7x28mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks again everyone.

[vontar]

Your grouping is far better then mine. Currently I am shooing a 35 year old Mark 1 Ruger. I will be buying a Mark 3 soon but not the hunter. The hunter with the longer barrel will out shoot what I am planning on buying. P512MKIII

Over the past year, when I was just practicing, I was using Mini mag CCI 1235 FPS and Remingtons 1280 FPS.

I had been practicing with cheaper shells and stuff I brought up when ammo was a bit harder to find a year or so back.

When I went for my HCP, I wanted to use the best I had, I didn't want to risk any snaps, or shove pipes. Out of about 1500 Remingtons I had about 3 misfires and 1 shovepipe.

I changed my ammo for a faster FPS right for my HCP class, I went from like 1235 to 1330 and my grouping improved, allot, still not as good as yours.

After seeing the faster ones preform better and the price was barley different I am going to stay with them.

My pattern got better when I switched to Winchester Super X 37 grains High Velocity 1330 FPS.

You can buy a box of Winchester Super X 37 grains High Velocity 1330 FPS, 555 rounds at Wal Mart for like 20 bucks. Then I just refill my 100 count smaller boxes with them.

Also A revolver should outshoot a semi auto since none of the energy is be used to work the action, but you probably knew that.

[StPatrick]

When I thought I was really getting better, my groups with a Sig 229 in 9 at 10 yards were 4"; the MKIII grouped about the same at 15 yards, and I was very proud. I haven't really gotten better since then, but I haven't spent the time, either. The groups you're putting out are pure rock and / or roll. As far as all the internet and gunshop ninjas, the holes in the paper speak the truth, everything else is just noise.

[Mike.357]

You can buy a box of Winchester Super X 37 grains High Velocity 1330 FPS, 555 rounds at Wal Mart for like 20 bucks. Then I just refill my 100 count smaller boxes with them.

Also A revolver should outshoot a semi auto since none of the energy is be used to work the action, but you probably knew that.

Dude, don't become one of them people who reloads the mini mag boxes, just throw them away and be done with it.

And my Ruger SAS does not shoot near as well as my Ruger MkIII