Buffalo Bore Ammo problems and 357 sig comparision

[Patton]

So I bought a box of 9mm+P+ for my 357sig vs all other calibers test only to not be able to hit the phone book with the buffalo bore brand ammo 3rds were fired. I was abble to successfully hit everything with FMJ out of the same gun a Glock 19 and it was hard to tell if they were going high low or just to the side. I am wondering if anyone had any idea what may have happened? Distance was only about 7yrds.

Now for the results of my none scientific results.

Ammo used

357 Sig HP Gold dots, 125 Grain Hollow Points

.40 SW remington Golden Saber, 180 Grain Golden Saber Jacketed Hollow,

.45 ACP, Remington Golden Saber, 185 Grain Golden Saber Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet

Weapons used

Glock 19

Gock 23

Glock 32

SW 1911 5" barrel

My results suprised me in finding the entry holes more similar between the 40 and the 45. This may be due to the brand ammunition being the same. The 357 holes were still big but deeper. Again I would like to conduct useing all the same brand ammunition. The FMJ 9mm 115grain rounds went all the way through the book where all the Hollow points were stopped. This is not really a surprise but the 357 Gold Dots were the closest to penetrating completely. They made it to about the last couple of pages.

I plan to gather all the same brand ammo and try to conduct this again in more controled setting. I will need more phone books to.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Patton
spelling

[Guest 10mm4me]

How/why are you shooting 357sig out of a G19?

[c.a.willard]

if i read correctly he was firing buffalo bore brand 9mm+P+ out of the glock 19, IOT compare its performance to the 357Sig caliber fired from the 32

[Patton]

The 9mm Buffalo Bore ammo was shot out of the Glock 19 and the 357 Sig ammo was shot out of a Glock 32. I wanted to make it as comparable as possible. With still some ammo shortages I couldn't find the same brand across the board. I will tell you the 9mm+P+ had no where near as much hand felt recoil as the 357 Sig rounds.

[Guest razorblade]

GT Distributors, in Chattanooga area, 357Sig Federal 125gr. JHP for $17.99 plus tax. Limit 1 per person per month. Just sayin'.

Edited July 26, 2010 by razorblade
addn'l info and spelling

[Patton]

^I noticed it to the other day but I'm a little well built up on 357 sig ammo. I bought 200rds FMJ for $50 at a gun show.

[leroy]

Patton:________________

How did the 357 sig do on expansion? Did the bullets shed their jackets in the phonebook?

RE:

...So I bought a box of 9mm+P+ for my 357sig vs all other calibers test only to not be able to hit the phone book with the buffalo bore brand ammo 3rds were fired. ...

You might want to take a look and see if the 9mm rounds are dropping by the chamber mouth on your 9mm barrel and causing headspace problems. Ive seen that before on the old colt 38 supers (...they originally had headspace problems...). They would sometimes shoot exactly as you have described.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[Patton]

The 357 rounds did seem to be a little and I mean little bit more expanded but it could have just been the brand of ammo used. Did not seperate but I only fired three of them though.

I need to fire some of the other rounds to see where exactly they are going. I wouldn't be suprised if they were off by a couple of feet. It just even felt weird but the FMJ rounds were as accurate as one could expect.

[glockster157]

When I had a G33 I was shooting Speer Gold Dots. If memory serves, I was getting around 1300ish out of that short barrel. I had a CZ75B in 9mm, longer barrel, and Winchester Ranger +P+ 127 grain(the older black coated ones) and they chronographed at 1225. I did not have a G26 to compare it too and the CZ had about a 1.5" barrel advantage. But all things considered, I still use the Winchester Ranger +P+ in my 9mm's.

[leroy]

....The 357 rounds did seem to be a little and I mean little bit more expanded but it could have just been the brand of ammo used. Did not seperate but I only fired three of them though.

I need to fire some of the other rounds to see where exactly they are going. I wouldn't be suprised if they were off by a couple of feet. It just even felt weird but the FMJ rounds were as accurate as one could expect.....

Thanks for the note on expansion; I'd say they are plenty good. The phonebook is plenty tough. If they were going to shed their jackets, they probably would in the phonebook paper. Looks like the guys have figured how to keep these speedy jhp bullets together. They used to be bad to shed their jackets.

Re: glockster's post regarding the gold dots out of the glock 33.

Our handloads will run from 1275 to 1325 out of our little cannon; so his numbers are right in line with ours. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to post the replys.

RE: The +p+ ammo inaccuracy problems.

I would take a look at whether the +p+9mm ammo will headspace in the barrel properly.

Just take the barrel out of the pistol and drop a couple or rounds in the chamber. If they try to drop below the breech, its a headspace problem with the rounds. They may be crimped too heavily from the factory; allowing the end of the round to slide by the end of the chamber.

We used to have these problems in the "old days" with the Colt series 70 38 supers (...they used to headspace on a small rim at the hood---- the new ones dont have this problem...). Lots of times it wouldnt space and drop by the hood. It would cause wild inaccuracy (....similar to what you have experienced...). We used to seat the bullets out to just touch the lands of the barrel (...i dont recommend this anymore!...) to fix the headspace problem. Accuracy would go right back up where it should be (...just like your 9mm fmj rounds...). Same pistol, completely different results. The headspace thing makes a great difference in accuracy in pistols.

Thanks again.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[Patton]

I responded but it didn't post the other day. I did what you said and droped one of the +P+ in the barrel but it sits the exact same as far as I can tell as all the other 9mm rounds I had laying around, but if I stuck it in the other end of the barrel it seamed a lot tighter like the bullet was slightly larger than the others and what it should have been. The difference the bullet would go in was about 1/24". The Glock 19 also has a really strong guide rod spring. It was like that when I got it. Any ideas?

[leroy]

I responded but it didn't post the other day. I did what you said and droped one of the +P+ in the barrel but it sits the exact same as far as I can tell as all the other 9mm rounds I had laying around, but if I stuck it in the other end of the barrel it seamed a lot tighter like the bullet was slightly larger than the others and what it should have been. The difference the bullet would go in was about 1/24". The Glock 19 also has a really strong guide rod spring. It was like that when I got it. Any ideas?

Patton:__________

This one puzzles me. I would have bet that there was a headspace problem with the +P+ rounds. What you described is exactly what we used to see on the old supers. The round woud drop into the barrel a bit mess up the headspace. It sounds like your +p+ rounds are sitting right as to headspace, because both rounds are sitting in the same place in the barrel. By the way, are the rounds flush with the back of the barrel where the barrel meets the slide?

You might want to take a .000 (...one thousands...) reading caliper or micrometer and see if you can get a good reading on the +p+ bullet diameter. It would also be great if you could dissassemble on of the +p+ rounds and measure the bullet if you cant get a good reading on the bullet with the load assembled (...sometimes you cant, due to seating depth of the bullet in the case and the curve of the bullet nose...). I would expect the bullet to measure .355 minimum.

This is a long shot; but do you see any lead or fouling buildup in the barrel?

RE: Guide rod spring. I dont think it is causing any trouble. My guess is that it is in the barrel or the bullet somewhere.

We need some more folks to think about this one.

Kind regards,

Leroy

Edited August 1, 2010 by leroy

[Patton]

By the way, are the rounds flush with the back of the barrel where the barrel meets the slide?

This is a long shot; but do you see any lead or fouling buildup in the barrel?

The rounds are almost flush with the lug off the back of the barrel, really it looks no different than the other rounds I dropped in their all from differnt manufacturers.

No unreasonable lead buildup or fouling.

[leroy]

...The rounds are almost flush with the lug off the back of the barrel, really it looks no different than the other rounds I dropped in their all from differnt manufacturers.

No unreasonable lead buildup or fouling. ....

Patton:______

What you described above is exactly how the rounds should be in the barrel chamber. That eliminates the headspace problem. Barrel clean; another good thing.

The only thing that i can come up with is that the bullets are small in the bore (...less than the bore size ---probably unlikely---but i would try to measure the bullet diameter to make sure...), or the glock just doesnt like the +P+ ammo. I have very rarely seen that happen. I have seen loads be so hot that the bullet deformed (...they were generally hard cast lead, not jacketed; and shot thru ruger SA's---never saw it in an auto...) that they would give bad accuracy at longer distances; but i have never seen a jacketed bullet give that kind of trouble. We need some other guys to think about this one and tell us what they think.

Keep thinking about this.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[Patton]

I went and fired about another 12 rounds of the 9mm +p+ along with my dad and this time they were all over a 4'X4' board. The hollow points were not expanding before hitting the target 10yds away. I did manage to get one in a phone book and it was hard to tell if it had any performance difference over the 357 sig HP. However once again FMJ rounds were dead on like always.

[Guest Law of Thirds]

If there was an issue with headspace it wouldn't be from some sort of issue with the rim. The reason the .38 Super headspaced off the rim originally (they're now headspaced off the mouth, which has removed most headspacing & accuracy issues) was because it's precursor, the .38 Automatic (same case size, lower pressure) headspaced off the rim, just like one of John Moses Browning's other semi-rimmed designs, the .32 ACP. I'm still not sure why he went with so many semi-rimmed designs, the only benefit that I can see is that extraction is almost guaranteed.

It probably has more to do with bullet weight & velocity changing point of impact combined with the lovely way one gun will be very accurate with a specific load while another will be wildly inaccurate.

Have you tried shooting the gun at that 4x4 off of a bench or out of a ransom rest?