random traffic stop

[c.a.willard]

So i feel like venting about this. Im on my way home from Guns and Leather with my wife on I 24. We had been out shooting, all and all great range day 450 rounds down range between the two of us and we bot had alot of fun. Im cruising along talking with my wife when she asks me why i slowed down. I was traveling at 82 slowed to 77-78 and i replied this area is heavily patroled. So 1 mile down the road what happens. A red four door car begins to pass me on the right at an obvioously higher rate of speed than my own. Sure enough while hes doing this we come in range of a LEO who apparently locked in the faster of our two vehicles speeds and puled us both over. The officer makes approach, i give hime my information and kindly inform him i have a unloaded firearm in the back seat. He then asks me how fast i was traveling and i respond with 78 the speed i was actually traveling at. The LEO informs me that he locked me in at 86. Heres the thing Im certified in instruction and use of both Radar and Lidar and i know full well that where we were and the direction he was facing that he could have gotten an accurate reading on both vehicles speeds. He ends up writing me for 74 in a 70, So of course im gonna pay it because its within how fast i was traveling. But here is what irks me. This guy has two peopple pulled over at one time, risky enough as it is but then one informs you they have a firearm, so risk increases. Another patrol pulls up behind him and im thinking to myself, thank god this guy actually has a clue and requested back up. No not at all, the back up walks up to the primary patrol talks to him for about 15 seconds and then leaves. Im an MP on a local military instillation so im well versed in Law Enforcement and Officer safety, so its just annoys me that he would take that risk when he had back up readily available. I understand when theres none around you have to do your job and the risks just come with it. Also the LEO didnt know i was a LEO untill after the citation was written because im not one of those guys that if i get pulled over that starts trying to get out of the ticket. Just neeeded to vent. Hopefully some other LEO's read this and use it as a learning point.

Edited July 25, 2010 by c.a.willard

[Guest db99wj]

With all the nut jobs shooting cops lately, West Memphis AR, and Florida to name two, I would think you would start seeing lots more stops with back up when possible. If I was a LEO, after these shootings, I would definitely be wanting some back up when possible.

[Mike.357]

lesson to be learned here.

[gregintenn]

I was once involved in a traffic stop where the police officer attempted to pull two cars over. He pulled me over and then continued up the road to pull another car over. I drove off. He pulled me over again and the other car drove off. after a couple of rounds of this, he lets me go. Why would you try to pull over two cars? An overacheiver?

[TNRobocop]

Quick question though....are you military police or civilian police working on the installation?

[c.a.willard]

Military Police. not sure how it makes a difference though.

[vontar]

I have seen them lock on to the wrong car before. I was in a van once that was being passed by a car. We got pulled over. I know we where not the ones speeding. The guy did not write us a ticket. It turned out when we both told him where we where going to work, it turned out his mom was our inspector at the job. He said he let us off with a warning but both of us disagreed with the stop. It was in traffic and we where being passed, it was about 12 years ago and I know the radar guns back then if 2 target in range, picked up on the faster target.

[TNRobocop]

Military Police. not sure how it makes a difference though.

Okay this will probably start a pissing match, but that's not the intent but here goes...

I have 22 years of military service, both active/guard/reserve as a AF SF/Army MP/USNR MA so bear with me on this. Military Police is not "real" police. This has been stressed in every MP-type unit I have ever been in. Troops get this into their head that they are the police, but this isn't true in the least.

You are not a LEO. Off-base you have no recognizable authority. You do not have the same training, experience, or resources most civilian police have. So you are looking at this from your eyes, which are from a military POV, not a standard civilian LE POV.

I say this because I am active duty Security Forces and do the same job full-time as you, just at my base. Working on a military base is no where near the same job as off base. Except for the rare shooting at Ft. Hood, drunk infantry or such, etc., 95% or more of your contacts will be compliant subjects that are military, military dependents or contractors. They know the rules and consequences of showing their azz to the MP's on the base.

I also work 20-30 hours a week as a civilan LE also. I have training certs out the ying yang, and have certification as a LE in OK and TN.

Just because you have the situation you described, doesn't mean anything the officer was doing was wrong. Myself, I am not inclined to deal with that many subjects/vehicles on a traffic stop, but to each their own. The officer called in the stop along with the tags, he is aware that you have an unloaded weapon in the car (which he will keep an eye on, but since you said something chances are you aren't a scrote and therefore a major risk).

The other officer that pulled up checked on him, then probably just went down the road on another call or something, but chances are the officer told the backer that all was 10-4 and if he needed anything he would holler. The other officer probably was just down the road and able to respond back if needed, plus the info was out there on the individuals that were stopped so alot of the risk was mitigated.

Not everything is as wrong as you think it might seem.

Edited July 25, 2010 by TNRobocop

[c.a.willard]

Just FYI the military law enforcement coummunity at least for my duty station has changed alot over that last few years to bring us more on line with civilian law enforcement. I do concede that across the board most military law enforcement arent trained to the same standards as ther civilian counterparts. However most of my training is federally certified and im a graduate of FLETC . Your right off base i have no recognizable authority, but that isnt the issue. right down the road is still down the road and doesnt offer you the help when you need it. and you know as well as i do that the officer would have a hard time defending trying to get accurate speed on two vehicles traveling relatively close to each other, at night and facing away from us so he likely was using his mirrors for tracking history. bottom line is he was outnumbered and one guy he new for a fact had a firearm in the vehicle. Also my installation is the third largest in the united states. Ive worked every type of call from the mundane to the rare extreamly violent call. ive also frequently worked side by side with my off post counterparts. in my jusrisdiction (on post) i am responsible for knowing and enforcing TN and KY state laws, USC, and military regulaions. The irony is after the stop the officer said i thought i recognized you, why because i assisted him doing apprehensions on base where he has no authority, and if im not mistaken it was for a violent offender. But I digress the post wasnt about differences between civilian and military law enforcement it was about officer safety. If its a risk i wouldn take in what most people consider a safer enviornment why should he assume that level of risk. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my brothers in other military branches and civilian law enforcement i dont like seeing any of them not takeing advantage of available support to midigate risk.

[c.a.willard]

Also i have no intention or desire to get into a pissing contest with anyone within this forum.

[Pain103]

Unfortunately some operators of radar/lidar don't use them correctly or maybe weren't properly trained to begin with. Now that is out of the way just some curiosity kills the cat questions. You said the position he was at he couldn't have gotten an accurate reading. Are you saying his position was so that there was a large cosine error or what exactly? If you have used any decent radar in the past 5-10 years you know they can show two readings IE. one vehicle and faster moving vehicle. The whole thing about stopping two vehicles at once alone I don't like and will probably never do because it's an officer safety nightmare.

[Guest grimel]

Just because you have the situation you described, doesn't mean anything the officer was doing was wrong. Myself, I am not inclined to deal with that many subjects/vehicles on a traffic stop, but to each their own. The officer called in the stop along with the tags, he is aware that you have an unloaded weapon in the car (which he will keep an eye on, but since you said something chances are you aren't a scrote and therefore a major risk).

No you are NOT allowed to think and make a reasoned assessment of the situation.

I'm happy to hear of a copper who engaged his brain and didn't freak out over a gun.

[c.a.willard]

Im familiar with the systems they use and yes i know they can show two seperate speeds, however when he made approach he stated he observed my vehicle traveling at 86 MPH which i know for a fact is not true and would estimate that that would be the correct speed of the vehicle that was passing me, So either improper use of the equipment or improper tracking history, im trying to err on the side of the officer here. Also the fastest vehicle was closest to center of hs radar cone making it the primary vehicle it would pick up as distance was almost the same. Also im glad he engaged his brain and didnt overreact about the firearm, however i do not see haveing a second person there as an overreaction. I see it as a necessary safeguard to ensure officer survival. I firmly believe without the weapon involvement that with two seperate vehicles he should have assistance. I did it once and will never do it again, to much going on to maintan situational awareness all by yourself. Who knows same may be true of this officer, this may have been the frst time something like this has happened to him and he learned.

[Guest That Guy]

Well, I don't really worry about the people that tell me about a firearm. Its the ones that don't say anything you have to watch.