Man ROBBED at local Gun Store

[Westwindmike]

I called the Reloaders Bench yesterday to give them a heads up on this thread in case they wanted to respond or defend themselves. The person I spoke to remembered the transaction in question. He told me the Smith's were police department trade ins. The seller had bought both of them from Reloaders Bench and had not paid a lot for them to begin with. He knew what he had in them and was perfectly happy to trade them for the new Smith.

I don't have a dog in this fight, as most of you don't either. The seller was happy, the buyer was happy. End of story.

I've been dealing with Larry at the Reloaders Bench for 20+ years and will continue to do so.

[Links2k]

I called the Reloaders Bench yesterday to give them a heads up on this thread in case they wanted to respond or defend themselves. The person I spoke to remembered the transaction in question. He told me the Smith's were police department trade ins. The seller had bought both of them from Reloaders Bench and had not paid a lot for them to begin with. He knew what he had in them and was perfectly happy to trade them for the new Smith.

I don't have a dog in this fight, as most of you don't either. The seller was happy, the buyer was happy. End of story.

I've been dealing with Larry at the Reloaders Bench for 20+ years and will continue to do so.

SNITCHES GET STICHES!

[mikegideon]

Post #101... the rest of the story

Lester, you and I have a lot in common. If I wasn't a member of TGO, and had no way to unload a used gun for a fair price, I would probably trade the gun to a dealer, and take my screwin' like a man. Fact is, my time and sanity may be worth alot more to me than a few hundred bucks.

I'm one of those guys that will (and have) corrected cashiers when they undercharged me, or simply gave me too much change. But, when I ask someone how much they will give me for something of value, it's take it or leave it from there.

[robbiev]

I've heard that once a firearm is sold, it can never be re-sold as new. Yet the my local gun shop, where she got it gave me full retail price toward the one I wanted.

Whether it can be resold as new is mostly a matter of ethical opinion. Most people seem to believe that once a gun is sold and leaves the store, it isn't ethical to take it back as a trade but then resell it to someone else as new. Conversely, some people think there is nothing unethical about doing that.

Personally, I wouldn't want to buy a gun (or any product) somewhere for full retail then find out it had been previously owned, but as I said, that's just my opinion.

[Guest Jamie]

Personally, I wouldn't want to buy a gun (or any product) somewhere for full retail then find out it had been previously owned, but as I said, that's just my opinion.

So you don't like buying guns that are sold by the manufacturer to a distributor, then to the gun dealer, then to you? ( 3 previous owners, before you got it. )

And if you say you don't want a gun that's been shot by anyone else, how 'bout the ones that come with a fired case in the box?

Personally, I couldn't care less how many hands they've been through, so long as a gun hasn't been USED and sold as new. Someone buys it, takes it home, then brings it back without ever using it? Still new, in my opinion.

BTW... what's the expiration time period/limit for "new" on a gun? If it sits on a dealer's shelf for 10 years before it's sold, is it really still new? If not, when did it quit being new?

J.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Jamie

[daddyo]

So you don't like buying guns that are sold by the manufacturer to a distributor, then to the gun dealer, then to you? ( 3 previous owners, before you got it. )

And if you say you don't want a gun that's been shot by anyone else, how 'bout the ones that come with a fired case in the box?

Personally, I couldn't care less how many hands they've been through, so long as a gun hasn't been USED and sold as new. Someone buys it, takes it home, then brings it back without ever using it? Still new, in my opinion.

BTW... what's the expiration time period/limit for "new" on a gun? If it sits on a dealer's shelf for 10 years before it's sold, is it really still new? If not, when did it quit being new?

J.

Guess you don't have a problem with a car dealer selling a previously titled automobile as new?

[Guest Jamie]

Guess you don't have a problem with a car dealer selling a previously titled automobile as new?

Depends on whether or not it's been used.

Besides, I've bought new cars that had a few miles on the odometer when I got 'em. Wasn't a lot, but they had already been driven by somebody.

But no, to answer your question directly, I don't consider paperwork to have anything to do with an item's "new" status, since like the car, a gun could possibly be run to death no matter how many owners are officially assigned to it.

J.

[robbiev]

So I guess we have to explain every single word in a post now. In a very general sense, people can define terms however they want to. I define "new" as having never been sold to a retail customer, which, as best I can tell, is a fairly standard definition. Having been sold to a distributor, then to a retail establishment is part of the wholesale distribution process. I thought it was reasonably obvious that I was referring to a retail sale, and not to the wholesale distribution of the product.

And, yes, I know that guns are fired at the factory. That doesn't change the fact that the gun is considered new. They start engines in cars at the factory, but the car is still considered new until it is sold retail. There isn't a time limit. It doesn't matter how long it is at the retailer as long as it hasn't been previously sold.

And again, as I said, people can define terms however they want to. If one person considers a product new until it is some number of months old, then that is that person's opinion. If another person considers a product new as long as it hasn't been used no matter how many people have owned it, that is that person's opinion. Neither one is necessarily wrong, neither is necessarily right. It's an opinion.

Edited July 27, 2010 by robbiev

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Post #101... the rest of the story

Lester, you and I have a lot in common. If I wasn't a member of TGO, and had no way to unload a used gun for a fair price, I would probably trade the gun to a dealer, and take my screwin' like a man. Fact is, my time and sanity may be worth alot more to me than a few hundred bucks.

Hi Mike

I've only traded off two guns, and both times was happy with the deals. First time was an old police trade-in, bought low-price from a dealer, then traded in to the same dealer for a new replacement of the same model. Liked the old dinged-up gun good enough to want a replacement shiny specimen.

Recently traded in a 10 year old nice revolver, and the dealer offered so much that I was worried he might not get his money back out of the deal. But figured he knows his business a whole lot better than I do. That model is still manufactured, and it now retails about double what I paid for it 10 years ago. So the trade-in allowance was very close to what I paid for the thang.

People who are good at negotiating and enjoy it are the ideal folks to run mom'n'pop retail shops.

It was a lot easier than trying to move the gun to a private seller, just to make a few extra bucks.

I realize that guns hold value real good (depending on the brand). But my bargaining sense is permanently warped from buying/selling electronics and music gear so long. Try selling a 10 year old oscilloscope or signal processor or computer for nearly the original retail price. Unless you lucked up and bought an item which attracted a "vintage cult following".

[Guest Jamie]

So I guess we have to explain every single word in a post now.

Not really. I just see a lot of contradiction and paradox in some terms, "new" being one of those.

There isn't a time limit. It doesn't matter how long it is at the retailer as long as it hasn't been previously sold.

Like I said, that seems to be a contradiction, to me. A 10 year old gun that may very well be obsolete because of improvements made later on isn't new. So granting it that status simply because no one ever bought it just seems absurd. "Unsold" or "Uncirculated", yes. But new? Hardly.

But anyway, yeah, it all comes down to what a person's comfortable with, I guess. I was just curious to see how people sort such things out in their minds. And like religion and politics, it apparently comes down to what people can convince themselves of and be happy with.

J.

[mikegideon]

Hi Mike

I've only traded off two guns, and both times was happy with the deals. First time was an old police trade-in, bought low-price from a dealer, then traded in to the same dealer for a new replacement of the same model. Liked the old dinged-up gun good enough to want a replacement shiny specimen.

Recently traded in a 10 year old nice revolver, and the dealer offered so much that I was worried he might not get his money back out of the deal. But figured he knows his business a whole lot better than I do. That model is still manufactured, and it now retails about double what I paid for it 10 years ago. So the trade-in allowance was very close to what I paid for the thang.

People who are good at negotiating and enjoy it are the ideal folks to run mom'n'pop retail shops.

It was a lot easier than trying to move the gun to a private seller, just to make a few extra bucks.

I realize that guns hold value real good (depending on the brand). But my bargaining sense is permanently warped from buying/selling electronics and music gear so long. Try selling a 10 year old oscilloscope or signal processor or computer for nearly the original retail price. Unless you lucked up and bought an item which attracted a "vintage cult following".

The music gear business would make me crazy. When I buy a gun, it's safe to say that I never get the best price. I want it now, so I find it, and buy it if the price isn't ridiculous. It's one of my character flaws. I compensate by making sure it's exactly what I want.

[robbiev]

Like I said, that seems to be a contradiction, to me. A 10 year old gun that may very well be obsolete because of improvements made later on isn't new. So granting it that status simply because no one ever bought it just seems absurd. "Unsold" or "Uncirculated", yes. But new? Hardly.

Normally, manufacturers' "new product" warranties apply from date of original retail purchase, which is part of the reason I define new as when it is first sold retail. In the case of vehicles, at least some manufacturers do not consider mileage on the vehicle as part of the warranty if the vehicle is new. In other words, if you purchase a new car with 1200 miles on it and the car has a 36,000 mile warranty, the manufacturer will warrant the original purchaser until 37,200 miles. I don't know how common that is, but I have had two instances where a new car was warranted for repairs beyond the exact mileage on the odomenter. Of course, I realize firearms aren't generally warranted for a certain number of shots.

Most people that I have dealt with consider a gun "not new" if is has been pre-owned, regardless of whether it has been shot. In the shops where I have worked, we have been (generally) unsuccessful getting new retail prices or even close to new retail for any gun that is preowned, even if it hasn't been shot.

But anyway, yeah, it all comes down to what a person's comfortable with, I guess. I was just curious to see how people sort such things out in their minds. And like religion and politics, it apparently comes down to what people can convince themselves of and be happy with.

Yes, agreed, which was my point. If a person is happy with some product they purchased at the price they paid, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.

Edited July 27, 2010 by robbiev

[DaveTN]

People rip people off everyday and no one says anything about it.

We have a few members here running gun businesses out of the sale forum. They continually post used prices higher than you can buy new. Yet in order to stay members here we have to keep our mouths shut while other members get ripped.

Some people can justify anything if they make a buck.

Anyone that thinks they can trade a gun in and get what its worth is delusional. (They are the same people that think they can trade a used car in and get a good deal.)

I have gun dealers that I do business with, consider to be friends, and give me good deals when I buy. But I don’t try to trade guns in or I would just be pizzed.

[Guest lahillis]

My name is Larry Hillis. I am the owner of The Reloader's Bench in Mt Juliet and I have been reading with great interest the trashing of my gun shop over a trade that was witnessed by someone on this

forum with the user name kcevans.

It was reported correctly that two Smith & Wesson model 64 revolvers in 38 special and $450 dollars were traded for a Smith & Wesson 357 magnum revolver. What was not reported was that both of the model 64's had been previously owned by a major security firm and had their hammers bobbed and were converted to double action only. This destroyed any collector value these guns may have had.They

are strictly shooters. We have been buying these guns for a little more than we offered this gentleman on trade but not much more. It has been assumed that the customer did not know the value of the guns

that he was trading. He knew, that is why he traded.

When someone wants to trade guns with me I usually tell them that they can sell their gun outright for more than I or any other gun shop will give them. I opened The Reloader's Bench 17 years ago

on a shoestring and have built it into a good gun shop with a good selection of guns , ammunition, and reloading supplies. You don't last that long by cheating people. I strive to be forthright and honest

in all of my dealings.

With all of that said I hope all of you guys who decide to trash someone in the future will get your facts straight.

[Guest buttonhook]

end of story...............................................lock it dan-o

[hardknox00001]

Before it gets locked

I think some of the previous posters who weren't so nice -

and obviously did not have the any/all of the facts -

and were quick to condemn Mr. Hillis and his business practices without said facts -

have something they need to say to the man...................................

edit - and I am ashamed to see that nobody in that category has not already done so......................

Edited July 28, 2010 by hardknox00001

[DMark]

.... It was reported correctly that two Smith & Wesson model 64 revolvers in 38 special....

Well DANG!

I had so hoped that those Smiths were pinned & recessed Model 65-1s with a 3 inch barrel.

I was planning on making a low-ball offer that would still have doubled RB's money.

Nothing worth following in this thread now....., time to un-subscribe.

Later,

[R1100R]

I don't know about the two revolvers that were traded. i do know what happened to me when I did business there and stand by that.

These issues were with a older guy named Jim that worked there and was witness by other employees. I have not seen him there for some time. I still go there and buy something each time I go in. Ammo, reloading etc , etc. I just have not tried to purchase a firearm since then.

[mikegideon]

Well, I'll say this. Stick around Larry. There are some great folks here (even tho this thread wasn't the best example). You'll wind up loving TGO.

[TGO David]

I think this thread has served its purpose -- if it even had one. Some good points have been made about the onus being on the seller to verify that they are getting a fair shake. It's not up to the buyer to offer top dollar. Were that the case, it could be said that we need to totally change the way we do things in the Classifieds here on TGO.

From this point forward, everyone should negotiate the price UP on any firearm that they wish to purchase. If the seller is asking $500, offer them $600 just to be moral and ethical.