Dear Gunny's Indoor Shooting Range...

[mav]

Everyone here is a tax cheat? Does that mean we have a future Treasury Secretary in our midst?

[Guest CJK]

Frankly I'm starting to wonder if you really are who you say you are. It's becoming really hard to imagine that someone in business for themselves would really come onto the largest firearms forum catering specifically to residents of their state and just start throwing punches like this. It's mind blowing considering the lengths that other gun shops go to in order to attract a loyal following, yet you seem bent on pushing people away.

I was beginning to wonder the same thing, actually.

[rg65]

On the other hand if I was a go along, to get along kind of person I would not own a gun shop -- I would be able to work for someone else and let them worry about making a payroll and paying the bills.

Many years ago I was told by a boss: Discretion is the better part of valor!

After I opened my business I added a new saying:

It's best to play to your strengths and deligate your weaknesses!

This helps keep the doors open!

Edited November 28, 2010 by rg65

[East_TN_Patriot]

However, that you would give Frontier a negative review on the basis of my having used the wrong choice of a single word "everyone" instead of "many", I can only shake my head in shame -- shame for you.

In fact, your words soil the badge you display as your Avatar - a tribute to members of our Armed forces and Law Enforcement.

REALLY?!?!? Are you really trying to prove your case by insulting the career of someone who is speaking their honest opinion? Where the heck do you get off pulling that crap? You, sir, have proven to me that you are little more than an arrogant jerk who can't handle not getting his way. I'll be very sure to pass along this info to all of my friends and fellow gun enthusiasts.

In case you haven't figured this out yet smart guy, we customers are the ones that keep you in business, and we have every right to gripe and complain. Throwing your weight around by popping off at people you don't even know just because you don't like what they have to say isn't professional by any stretch of the imagination. If you had spent a little time around the forums instead of making your initial posts a collection of rants and insults, you would see that most of the folks here talk regularly about how they are happy to spend a little extra to support their local gun shops. You jumped into this with both feet, stirred up the hornet's nest, got your butt handed to you, and instead of apologizing and bowing out gracefully, you just toss out some more insults. Way to go there hot shot.

[titan14]

REALLY?!?!? Are you really trying to prove your case by insulting the career of someone who is speaking their honest opinion? Where the heck do you get off pulling that crap? You, sir, have proven to me that you are little more than an arrogant jerk who can't handle not getting his way. I'll be very sure to pass along this info to all of my friends and fellow gun enthusiasts.

In case you haven't figured this out yet smart guy, we customers are the ones that keep you in business, and we have every right to gripe and complain. Throwing your weight around by popping off at people you don't even know just because you don't like what they have to say isn't professional by any stretch of the imagination. If you had spent a little time around the forums instead of making your initial posts a collection of rants and insults, you would see that most of the folks here talk regularly about how they are happy to spend a little extra to support their local gun shops. You jumped into this with both feet, stirred up the hornet's nest, got your butt handed to you, and instead of apologizing and bowing out gracefully, you just toss out some more insults. Way to go there hot shot.

.....

[East_TN_Patriot]

Everyone here is a tax cheat? Does that mean we have a future Treasury Secretary in our midst?

[Bubbatn]

You know nothing of my character...as I likely should not based my opinion of your character on what you wrote. Your advice is well taken -- if you check you will find that I have never really posted to this site.

I may not, but if what you have showed in this thread (whatever it may be) is any indication, That is plenty enough for myself to not to want to give you my business.

[Metalhead]

I can understand the fustration of internet gun sellers and the like, as I've been there - but pretty much raping yourself on TGO isnt exactly the answer.

<makes plans for Knoxville area G&L domination>

It's a joke!

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

I am probably in the minority here, but I appreciate the Mr. Williams coming here and trying to set the record straight.

I for one was not aware of the margin of profit on firearms. I didn't assume it was huge, but I never for the life of me assumed it to be so narrow.

I understand his frustration, and I sympathize with with him in this harsh economic environment.

He does have a point about us not being his customer base, to a degree. It is rare that one of us (and by us I mean 'educated gun enthusiasts') would walk into a store without an idea in our head of what we wanted, and what said item is worth. Now, that is not a bad thing for us, but for a salesman, that is a nightmare. No offense meant to the profession. The idea is to upsell and convince the consumer of what they want. When the consumer already knows what they want, the sale is more difficult to make on many levels. What if you don't have what the consumer wants? What if your price is not competitive? It is not as easy to sell in a brick and mortar when you are talking about a high dollar item since the advent of the internet.

Myself, I have found that most of the time, it is the same price to buy from a LGS than it is to ship to an LGS and transfer.

Now, I have a few things for Mr. Williams.

First, if your net profit from a sale is around $30, what is your net profit from a transfer? I would think it would be equitable, and if not, please help me understand why it isn't. You don't have to hold the item in inventory for an extended period of time, and the labor for the 4473 would be similar to that of a sale. If it is an item that you don't regularly stock, how does it inconvenience you to transfer it? Wouldn't ordering it for inventory cost more in the long run? Shipping, space time lost in placing the order, waiting for arrival and so forth? This is also a selfish question, as I would like to understand why so many dealers are loathe to transfer firearms and charge so much. To my layman's opinion, it would seem much less hassle than stocking the item.

Second, why the hate about 'tax evasion?' I mean, I understand it, I work hard and see very little return on it, as there are millions on welfare taking it from me. However, as a business, don't you get your items tax free to begin with, and as such charge the consumer sales tax on the item? That is how it works in my business. I sell products for resale, and once a retailer gives me their Tax ID number, I don't charge them tax, as it is their responsibility to charge the end consumer sales tax. As such, I am a little confused as to how this correlates into the argument. Do you pay tax on said items in inventory on April 15th? And if so, wouldn't an item sent for transfer be exempt from this as it is not really in inventory?

For the record, nothing you have said would stop me from being a customer, and I understand you are frustrated, but coming here and attacking all the members with blanket statements did kind of rub me the wrong way.

We generally charge $20 to $25.00 for most transfers.

Many people assume that FFL make a lot of money on that transfer fee they charge but the fact is we don't.

FIREARMS TRANSFERS ARE NOT FREE. EACH FIREARM TRANSFER INCLUDES:

Sending via mail or fax our signed FFL

Receiving and storing firearm until it is picked up

Insuring firearm until it is picked up.

Recording firearm acquisition into ATF Log Book

Checking ID of customer& verifying compliance with Brady Laws

Auditing and completing ATF form 4473

Entering ATF 4473 form into TBI System

Acquiring & recording TICS Number

Recording TICS Number on ATF form 4473

Recording firearm disposition into AFT Log Book

Cost of photo copying and forms

Collection & transmittal of Sales Tax (if paid)

Collecting & transmittal TBI fee to the TBI

Cost of Insurance, Payroll, and Overhead

Cost of permanently storing ATF Form 4473 forever.

Cost of maintaining FFL license

Cost to reply to ATF inquires on firearm should any come up.

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Garufa]

Frankly I'm starting to wonder if you really are who you say you are. It's becoming really hard to imagine that someone in business for themselves would really come onto the largest firearms forum catering specifically to residents of their state and just start throwing punches like this. It's mind blowing considering the lengths that other gun shops go to in order to attract a loyal following, yet you seem bent on pushing people away.

Very odd.

I also am beginning to doubt some of this. Frontier spends lots of money locally on TV and Radio ads. Saw many commericals today during the UT-KY game. There are a couple of billboards on the interstate near the Kingston exit.

I'd hate to think such an astute businessman would jump up on the internet and start pissing off potential customers to defend a semi-competitor that is driving themselves into the ground.

I will never buy a gun from Frontier but coffee was offered the both times I visited. That first trip was after the Obamination and all the price tags were removed from the guns. If you have to ask....

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

Never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[mav]

Your comments really didn't bother me. Personally, I couldn't care less, but that is just me. I doubt I will ever buy a gun from you, not because of what has been said, but mainly you are too far from me and there are several vendors closer that I know and like.

To rectify the problem you have created with your very poor choice of words, you might consider a 10% discount to TGO members. A nice way to bury the hatchet.

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Guest CJK]

Never mind.

Edited November 28, 2010 by CJK

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[BimmerFreak]

I have nothing to say, but just want to post in such an epic thread!!!!

(ok, I have to say something...)

*I think EVERYONE here (shop owners, customers, moderators) could try a little harder to understand how it feels to be on the other side of the fence.

- Customers want to feel like they are getting a fair value, and being treated with some class. Not too much to ask.

- Shop owners want their customers to understand that the gun business is a low margin, high stress venture. Fair enough.

- TGODavid wants everyone to know he loves chocolate ice cream. You bet he does!!!!

Ok now.....everyone gather 'round for the TGO group hug

[Guest Ae-35]

Hey Tri-Cites TGO'ers ! Don't he sound like the owner, of the ONLY gun store in the tri. to close in the last 4 years? If at the end of his non-apology... apology, and request for our patronage ,he'd claimed the reason for his mouth over-loading his hind-end, was he had stomach cancer, he'd sound just like..... (wait for it ! ) That's right ...Tim Crowder !!!!! ( by the way, Crowder has NEVER had ANY form of cancer, not according to his own wife! ) Even the J. C. Leo's would warn you not to shop at his store !!!! He pooped on too many people and it finally caught up with him, now he's having to rent a little booth inside the Piney Flatts Flea Market, to try to rip the un-knowing off. Oh yeah, mister big-shot 2 gun store owner, ask ANY successful and happy gun store owner he'll tell you that 90% of the time , price is not the determining factor for a costumer making a purchase !!!! Buy the way I've driven by your Kingston store, and for sure that's all I'll ever do !!!

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

Cite some examples.

For your information, many people order online because the local gun shop either does not have the desired item in stock or will only order at a premium from their distributor(s). Very few around here that I've noticed "brag" about ordering a gun online just to avoid taxes.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/general-off-topic/42479-tn-sales-tax-pistol-bought-online-shipped-another-state.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handguns/822-ffl-transfers.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/general-off-topic/29794-more-tax-crap.html

Illegal activities should never be discussed here. This includes but is not limited to discussion of ways to circumvent laws or regulations (see Rule #6).

Obviously a web community centered upon firearms ownership will have members from various local, State and Federal law enforcement agencies let alone be monitored by those same agencies. Don’t put them in a position to have to do something professionally about something stupid that you did or are going to do.

We would greatly prefer that our members not engage in illegal activities in the first place, but if you have you should be smart and not blab about it on the Internet.

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Guest Ae-35]

No smart-a$$, I stop in Kingston to eat ,on the way to Nashville, I have to go back regularly for check-ups, that's where I had my heart-transplant.

[Guest FrontierFirearms]

never mind

Edited November 28, 2010 by FrontierFirearms

[Dolomite_supafly]

And to add a little more about the transfers the FFL's do.

He listed the bare minimum of what happens. What also happens is a customer decides to buy a crate or two of Mosin Nagants to give to his family for Christmas. He doesn't notify the shop or give any contact info other than a name. Now the customer ordered the rifles in the summer but doesn't want to take possession of them until right before Christmas so his family doesn't find out. Now the shop has to sit on them wondering when or if the person who bought them will ever come in. Or the shop spends time and money trying to contact the seller to get the buyers information to let the buyer know the rifles are in and in most cases the customer already knows and figures the FFL is a great place to store the guns.

I have stood in a shop when normal business came to a screeching halt as dozens of guns come in the door for transfer. And to make matters worse it always seems like the big deliveries happen at the end of the business day.

This is why some shops charge what they do because they could be making more money doing things other than transfers.

Dolomite

[TGO David]

I can understand the fustration of internet gun sellers and the like, as I've been there - but pretty much raping yourself on TGO isnt exactly the answer.

<makes plans for Knoxville area G&L domination>

It's a joke!

Probably not a bad idea though.

- TGODavid wants everyone to know he loves chocolate ice cream. You bet he does!!!!

Mmm. Chocolate.

I'm closing this thread since it appears that whomever this Frontier Firearms person really is now wants to go back and delete everything they've said in this thread. Maybe they are legitimately a representative of this shop and realizing the mistake they made. Or maybe they're not who they purport to be and they are trying to cover their tracks.

Regardless, the thread is done.