Tips from experienced sub-compact shooters requested!

[StPatrick]

The background: I have a fullsize and compact 9mm (XDm service and P229) that group well, out to 15 yards (farthest I've tried). I'm not the best shooter, but beyond the occasional flyer, nearly all my shots (10-20 round groups) end up in a 6" circle at that distance.

I recently purchased my first "mousegun", a PT709, which you all know is chambered in 9mm. I first attributed my inability to shoot any kind of group to the tiny grip and sweaty hands, so I put a Hogue grip sleeve on it. While twisting in the palm area during the trigger pull was greatly reduced, accuracy hasn't really improved. I'm still shooting "minute of bad guy", but I want it to be better. I figure that putting very high demands on my accuracy while I have time to think about shooting pays dividends, should I not have time to do so someday (God forbid).

From past experience, I know that it's 99% likely to be me, as I have yet to find any gun that wasn't more accurate and precise than me. What advice do you have regarding techniques to improve precision with a tiny gun? Specifically, what should I be doing with the "slim" that differs from shooting a larger pistol for accuracy?

Much obliged for the feedback, as always.

[Guest 10mm4me]

Grip the gun harder and focus on the front sight

[eapking]

Same here. I shoot my G26 worse than any other. Even grip extension mags don't seem to help.

[BigK]

I had to change my grip all together for my Kel-Tec P-32. My full-size guns get a modified isoceles stance and a high grip w/ my thumbs aligned and pointing forward like Todd Jarrett holds a 1911. My mousegun gets a firm one-handed grip with support hand underneath and my fingers wrapping around my shooting hand from underneath. I still get 10-12" groups at 10 yds.

An NRA certified instructor at the range taught me the full-size grip I mentioned above and she demonstrated, putting 3 shots into a ragged hole in the bullseye at 7 yds with my CZ P-01. Needless to say she's an unbelievably good shot. She also taught me the mousegun grip too and told me that I'm wasting my time shooting "that little thing" at targets past 5 yds. She says that's not what they are designed for. She says a gun that light with a barrel that short is real hard to be accurate beyond 10 or 20 feet.

Do with that info what you will, but I mostly agree. I've put several hundred rounds through my P-32, since she helped me with my grip. I saw an initial improvement, but I'm still not getting 6" groups at 5 yds. I think it's more the gun than me, b/c I can get all 9's and 10's with 4 14rd mags at the same distance with my P-01.

Edited July 23, 2010 by BigK

[Mad_Squirrell]

The gun is capable you just have to be very stable and consistent next time I go to the range I'll try to video dad with his Beretta bobcat in .22lr it will make you sick what he can do with that pistol at 25 yds. because nobody will believe me if I told em .

[peejman]

I'd suggest lots of dry-fire practice. Something is causing the inconsistency, you just have to figure out what it is.

Don't discount the accuracy of short barreled pistols. Remember Bob Munden hitting ballons at 200 yds on a windy day with a snubby?

[leroy]

Patrick:_________

This is the grip that i use with my Glock 33:

...My mousegun gets a firm one-handed grip with support hand underneath and my fingers wrapping around my shooting hand from underneath...

The old dtimers called it the "Teacup" grip. Grip the pistol firmly with the shooting hand, and steady the shooting hand with the other; reaching up from below. Get a firm, but not trembly grip on the shooting hand and concentrate on the front sight.

All this being said; (...and as others have said...) the best way to improve shooting is do lots of shooting; practicing the fundamentals of good shooting. The best tool to practice with is a good rimfire 22 pistol or revolver. Shoot as much as you can with it. You will be amazed at what a bit of practice with a good 22 will do for your shooting.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards

Leroy

[JReedEsq]

Same here. I shoot my G26 worse than any other. Even grip extension mags don't seem to help.

I have a G26 and in my opinion it's not really a mouse gun. My LCP is my mouse gun and the G26 is my smallest real gun. Keep practicing with it and it will come. I shoot mine as well as my bigger Glocks at short range, it just requires a slight bit of extra time in between shots. Unfortunately, my LCP is a different story, it want's to jump out of my hand and all my other shooting is with my Glocks so the long trigger pull is annoying. I plan to practice with it a little more now that .380 is getting cheaper.

[JReedEsq]

Patrick:_________

This is the grip that i use with my Glock 33:

The old dtimers called it the "Teacup" grip. Grip the pistol firmly with the shooting hand, and steady the shooting hand with the other; reaching up from below. Get a firm, but not trembly grip on the shooting hand and concentrate on the front sight.

All this being said; (...and as others have said...) the best way to improve shooting is do lots of shooting; practicing the fundamentals of good shooting. The best tool to practice with is a good rimfire 22 pistol or revolver. Shoot as much as you can with it. You will be amazed at what a bit of practice with a good 22 will do for your shooting.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards

Leroy

+1 to Leroy's wisdom on the .22. I bought an Advantage Arms conversion kit for my G17 which means I shoot a lot more often and the extra trigger time has helped. It's just like having a .22 Glock to practice with.

[StPatrick]

I'll give the "teacup" grip a try. I have to apologize to other posters, as I've wasted some of your time by not being more specific about how I practice. My primary practice gun is a Ruger MKIII, which I shoot thumbs forward from a modified (right leg set back 8" or so, right handed shooter) isosceles. I can't afford to shoot more than 100 rounds of 9mm at a time, so then I switch to .22LR. The Ruger .22 and my larger 9mm pistols, group tightly, around 4" with the .22 at 15 yards, and 6" or so with the 9s. Please note that I am not trying to be dickish in my response - I genuinely didn't mean to waste your time, and should have provided enough info in the OP to prevent you from spending your time telling me things I already know.

Peejman - I've spent a good deal of time dry-firing, and the front sight barely moves. That's one of the reasons I can't find the root cause of this problem. It's really frustrating.

Honestly, the recoil on the PT709 is very manageable on top of everything else, so I am sure that I'm not doing something right. Hopefully, changing my grip from "thumbs forward" to "teacup" will fix this.

Thanks again for all your responses. If I ever figure out how to master that little pistol, I'll post what I learn in the process. If not, somebody might get a deal in the classifieds.

[eapking]

I have a G26 and in my opinion it's not really a mouse gun. My LCP is my mouse gun and the G26 is my smallest real gun. Keep practicing with it and it will come. I shoot mine as well as my bigger Glocks at short range, it just requires a slight bit of extra time in between shots. Unfortunately, my LCP is a different story, it want's to jump out of my hand and all my other shooting is with my Glocks so the long trigger pull is annoying. I plan to practice with it a little more now that .380 is getting cheaper.

Oh I agree, the G26 is just the smallest thing I have. I can't picture shooting anything smaller. Not a true "mouse gun". I get a lot of first shot flyers. Not the first of the session, but the first in a mag. It's almost like me head's not really into the first shot, or eye not on sights. I dunno.