Pre- travel, creep and pull

[94user]

Please look past my ignorance on all this. I'm trying to figure out how all three of these factors correlate and how understanding it can make me a better shooter.

Is pre travel and creep the same or directly related to each other? How does this affect trigger pull?

Can my understanding these factors make me shoot more accurately?

[Smith]

Pre-treavel/take-up is the amount of distance you have to pull the trigger before you feel resistance. Creep refers to the distance it takes for the trigger to break/fire after the pre-travel or resistance is felt. Ideally you want minimal pre-travel and no creep. Ideally when you pull the trigger it should "POP" immediately. Some describe it as a glass rod instantly snapping. Pressure, pop, reset.

[mav]

Well, I don't know if understanding those factors by themselves will help you shoot more accurately, but I can tell you what I have learned. When I first got into handguns, I found a good instructor to teach me how to shoot and do it well. While private or group instruction isn't necessary at all, it does help a lot. The first thing I was taught to improve my accuracy was to slow down. I was taught to load up my mag with 5 rounds and my goal was to put 5 shots in the same hole at around 3 - 5 yards, and this was done very slow. I still practice this every week, although the distance is much greater. I remember having an enormous headache after my first lesson from concentrating so hard. In addition to slowing down, my grip, and finger position on the trigger, stance, and all the other stuff was corrected, if needed, as well.

After learning to shoot extremely tight groups at that distance the target was moved back and/or the speed was increased. Once I was taught how to properly shoot, it was just up to me to put in the range time. As it is with pretty much anything, you can build something a lot better on top of a proper foundation.

In regards to trigger pull, I have found the lighter the pull the easier it is to make tight groups. I got a Sig P226 X-Five L1 about 3 weeks ago. It has around a 2 lb trigger pull. It is by far the most accurate handgun I have ever owned or shot. You can do some crazy groupings with it. If you put it in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, which certainly isn't me, it is amazing.

[Smith]

I should add that pre-travel and creep affect accuracy in similar but different ways. The longer the pre-travel the more time you have to get off target. It also creates more movement while in the initial stages of firing the gun. Creep affects accuracy similarly but because you have to exert extra pressure it makes it more likely to move you off target. This is why people with DA triggers will "stage" their trigger when firing for accuracy. What that means is they pull the trigger and hold it until it is about to break, center their sights, and then finish the the pull with an immediate break.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

What about (what I think) is called over-travel-- The distance that the trigger can continue to move after it breaks?

My shooting probably won't significantly improve much more but continue working at it. Shooting SA Mark II .22 at 10 yards, can get most shots in about a 2" circle, and with 9mm 92FS or CZ85 maybe about 4" circle, on non-shaky days. Other than shake, trigger control is probably the biggest limiting factor. On DA it is significantly worse.

Have been practicing a Kahr P9 for 'practical accuracy' repeatedly lift the pistol to position, align sights as quickly as can be done accurately (which isn't all that quick, but probably can improve). Then squeeze trigger deliberately in neither a hurry or 'staged'. Working on consistent squeeze without shake.

The Kahr DA trigger is pretty smooth, but seems to have a fair amount of over-travel. Trying to align and get a shot within about 1 or 2 seconds, all the 10 yard hits make it into a silhouette target, but the groupings are not tight and a lot of them tend to go a few inches low. By aiming a little higher, can put most of them into the center of mass.

I think the reason the Kahr tends to shoot low is because of the over-travel. Think that the hand is holding the pistol 'pretty steady' including the tension on the trigger as it is squeezed. But when it breaks and there is no resistance to the over-travel, the pistol slightly cants down from the loss of resistance on the trigger, simultaneous with the round firing. Which results in accidentally aiming slightly down during many shots.

This over- travel may be the same factor that loosens up DA trigger groups on the S&W 586 revolver or other stiff DA triggers (in my hand).

After becoming sensitive to the issue on the Kahr, seemed to be able to notice it to a lesser extent on SA pistols that have less over travel, but not NO overtravel. Maybe learning to deal with the overtravel with changed technique would tighten up most groups. Dunno exactly what to change about a grip to compensate for the pistol slightly pitching forward into the overtravel when the trigger breaks. There is a certain dynamic tension of the entire hand and trigger finger when the trigger is under pressure, and when that pressure is relieved and goes into the over-travel, seems that SOMETHING is gonna move in the aim, approximately simultaneous with the bullet firing?

Edited July 14, 2010 by Lester Weevils

[peejman]

What about (what I think) is called over-travel-- The distance that the trigger can continue to move after it breaks?

A friend who was a IPSC shooter gave me some advice that helped me improve my follow-up shot time. He told me that when the trigger breaks, hold it to the rear until the gun comes back on target. Then release the trigger only until it resets (there's usually an audible/tactile "click") and squeeze again.

Once he told me this, I began to notice lots of people who completely release the trigger immediately after firing. Some even relax and re-grip the gun between shots without being aware they're doing it. Holding the trigger to the rear keeps your grip firm and your finger in the same position on the trigger, both of which help with consistent and quick follow-up shots.

As to the OP's question, I agree with Smith.

[SonnyCrockett]

Some triggers have way too much creep which is why I test before I buy if possible.

Is this related to poor QC control or poor design??

The parts that make up a striker fire semi auto handgun internally no matter what the brand

do not cost much from a MFG standpoint ,springs & stamped steel parts

- so all should IMO have stellar triggers

but unfortunately thats not the case..Some brands plain suck but now and again you

get a winner - its subjective,one mans winner is another mans loser

[Guest Lester Weevils]

While cleaning the Kahr P9 I checked out the over-travel with slow-motion dry-fire, and unless the trigger breaks sooner when squeezing the trigger faster, there does not seem to be significant over-travel after the trigger breaks. I was wrong, and didn't want to be slandering the Kahr action. It is a pretty smooth double-action really.

I pay attention to the follow-thru, so it is remains an open question why the pistol seems to stay on target during the trigger pull but slightly dip when the trigger breaks.

It may be some kind of flinch, but it doesn't feel like a flinch, and the recoil is so trivial there shouldn't be any reason for a flinch.

Practice makes perfect, they say. It is an easier-controlled DA trigger than the old S&W 649 or the NAA .380 pocket pistol anyway.

[Guest The Highlander]

As the trigger "breaks," there is a sudden release of energy (your finger pressure), that now has nothing to hold it back until it slams into the trigger stop. Based on the center of gravity of the weapon, it will cause the gun to rotate around its axis, which means it "pulls" the gun slightly lower. Also, I bet you do have just a bit of a flinch, even if you don't notice it. Nearly everybody except people like Brian Enos, Robbie Leatham and Todd Jarrett do!

Just keep shooting!

[timcalhoun]

What you are probably doing is timing the gun, which is not a flinch. Every top action pistol shooter in the world times the gun. It looks like a flinch to the untrained eye but it is not a flinch. Timing a gun is simply putting the proper amount of energy back into the gun after the bang to quickly bring the sights back on target. Example would be, If the round does not detonate for one reason or the other you will see the gun dip and many will say that they flinched. Not so necessarily.

In your case, I think you are timing the gun before the bang mostly because you are slapping the trigger from what I gather from your description. Slapping is pulling the whole trigger all at once to break the shot. Almost 100% of the top USPSA shooters do not slap the trigger. They prep the trigger as they are acquiring the sight picture and then when the sights are right then they put a little more pressure to break the shot. So that sequence looks like this.

1. Draw,

2. Safety off after you clear holster (if applicable)

3. Prep the trigger as you bring the gun up more

4. Trigger is already prepped as you acquire your sights on target

5. When the sights looks good you break the shot

6. Gun recoils

7. As the gun is recoiling and you are putting your sights back to the sight picture, you are prepping the trigger again etc....

Basically I think you might be trying to run before you walk. Weather you slap the trigger (Rob Leatham is one of the few that does this with success) or you do the prep technique, you have to practice the sequence slow before you can go fast. If you just go fast before knowing what to do and when, you will most likely get the results you did.

Hope this helps.

While cleaning the Kahr P9 I checked out the over-travel with slow-motion dry-fire, and unless the trigger breaks sooner when squeezing the trigger faster, there does not seem to be significant over-travel after the trigger breaks. I was wrong, and didn't want to be slandering the Kahr action. It is a pretty smooth double-action really.

I pay attention to the follow-thru, so it is remains an open question why the pistol seems to stay on target during the trigger pull but slightly dip when the trigger breaks.

It may be some kind of flinch, but it doesn't feel like a flinch, and the recoil is so trivial there shouldn't be any reason for a flinch.

Practice makes perfect, they say. It is an easier-controlled DA trigger than the old S&W 649 or the NAA .380 pocket pistol anyway.

[timcalhoun]

Overtravel either short or long will never cause low hits because the bullet is long gone before you can ever react to the break itself.

As the trigger "breaks," there is a sudden release of energy (your finger pressure), that now has nothing to hold it back until it slams into the trigger stop. Based on the center of gravity of the weapon, it will cause the gun to rotate around its axis, which means it "pulls" the gun slightly lower. Also, I bet you do have just a bit of a flinch, even if you don't notice it. Nearly everybody except people like Brian Enos, Robbie Leatham and Todd Jarrett do!

Just keep shooting!

[Guest The Highlander]

Tim,

I disagree. Anything that affects sight alignment while the bullet is still in the barrel affects accuracy to a degree. And a heavier trigger pull, with more potential energy released at the break, converting into kinetic energy and slamming into the frame, most certainly qualifies.

But that is the great thing about the forum, hunt long enough, and hear enough opinions, and you will find one you like.

[Smith]

Tim,

I disagree. Anything that affects sight alignment while the bullet is still in the barrel affects accuracy to a degree. And a heavier trigger pull, with more potential energy released at the break, converting into kinetic energy and slamming into the frame, most certainly qualifies.

But that is the great thing about the forum, hunt long enough, and hear enough opinions, and you will find one you like.

In a long gun yes, but in a handgun not so much. Like Tim said, by the time you've hit the trigger stop the bullet is long gone. However, the more wiggle you have the longer it takes to require the target which does affect accuracy because you start rushing. From what I've read, that is where speed comes from. The time it takes to get back on target, not necessarily the speed of the trigger. Big reason why the reset trigger technique is so fast.

[Guest The Highlander]

You guys are actually missing my point to a degree. At the instant of the "break," you are exerting lets say 5 lbs of pressure in a rearward direction. As the trigger lets go, the pistol is affected to some extent by the sudden release of energy that was being exerted directly against it (via the trigger). This change of vector in the energy must go somewhere (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). There is a slight delay of a few microseconds (called lock time) where all the mechanical parts of the trigger and firing system go to work, then there is a few more microseconds of time with the powder combusting, more for pressure to build, and still more for the bullet to exit the barrel. During this time, the movement of the trigger, hammer, your finger, all that mass moving around has inertia that will cause some wobble in the sights.

Somewhere in this sequence, your finger, which is still pulling at 5+ pounds of force, and the trigger encounter the trigger stop, or the rear of the frame, whatever. At that point you have another "event" with the vector of the force now being directed into the frame of the gun.

All this "stuff" happens extremely quickly, but every time the vector of the force changes, it will have a minute effect on the sight alignment of the gun.

Your comparing apples to oranges when you bring rifles into this equation for several reasons. First, the pistol will weigh much less than a rifle, in fact it will weigh less than the pressure you exert on the trigger (5 pounds to a 2.5 pound handgun for instance). The rifle may weigh 8-10 pounds, or easily twice the weight of the trigger pull. The rifle is also typically less affected by the break because it is more often shot from a solid rest, whereas the handgun is shot from your feet, with only your arms supporting it.

Also the handgun will tend to rotate around an axis as the forces affect it. The axis is the center of gravity for the pistol, keeping in mind that your grip will affect it quite a bit, it is somewhere around your trigger finger. I've seen the argument that hinged, top-pivoting triggers like the Browning Hi-Power are more affected than straight pull designs like the 1911, partially for this reason. Also, a small change in alignment will produce a greater margin of change in point of impact for a short barrel than the same displacement of sights in a longer barrel.

Top shooters use a light weight trigger pull for several reasons, one is certainly to speed their break when they decide to release the shot. However another reason is that a lighter trigger pull will have less impact (pardon the pun) on sight alignment than a heavy pull.

If you don't think trigger break/weight has an affect of sight alignment and thus accuracy, watch your sights closely when dry firing with a target pistol, and a pistol with a very heavy pull of say 10 pounds and see which disturbs your sight alignment more. A weapon with a very slow lock time will also increase the wobble in your sight alignment. Dry-fire with something like a short-barreled big bore SA revolver. I have a .44 Ruger Blackhawk with a hammer fall so slow I can actually watch it.

Now keep in mind that all the above is a compilation of my experiences being taught to shoot, shooting, reading about shooting, and watching others shoot for the last 40 years, it is only my opinion, and is worth exactly as much as the paper it is written on!

The Highlander

[timcalhoun]

You're right. What do I know. : )

[Guest The Highlander]

Probably about as much as the rest of us know! I just appreciate the OP letting us somewhat hijack his thread for an esoteric discussion on our views of sight alignment!

On a serious note, one reason I like the TGO Forum is the nice people. I see too much name-calling and ranting and chest thumping from too many Rambo's on some of the gun forums out there. It is nice to be here, see others opinions, and voice our own.

To paraphrase Brian Enos, all I truly knows is that it hurts when I hit my thumb with a hammer!

[94user]

Ya'll didn't really hijack my thread. If you re-read my OP you will see that you're actually following it. Thanks.

[eastenn]

Just to comment on Highlander's post, I see your point that after the trigger breaks you may pull the gun slightly downward before the bullet gets moving (milliseconds here), but in the same respect as soon as that bullet starts moving it is going to exert more force on the gun in the upward direction before the bullet gets out of the end of the barrel to more than compensate for the minor downward pull from the over travel.

So my opinion, IF there is time to alter sight alignment after the trigger breaks then he would be shooting high due to recoil, not low due to over travel.

We bought a Bersa Thunder .380 for my wife and we were both shooting it low at first, but it came down to learning the trigger. It seems to stack through the last bit of pull and it was causing us to dump the front of the gun right before the trigger broke. I would guess the OP's issue is similar.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'm probably just not talented enough to master a DA trigger. Always resisted the idea of cocked and locked carry. It seemed an invitation to eventually some kind of doofus Barney Fife accident. Maybe eventually will have to get a small 1911 for carry.

Can hit sillhouette targets at practical range with double-action, but it is annoying to be so inaccurate with DA. My DA accuracy on the beretta 92 or S&W 586 isn't terrible. Both of those guns have had trigger jobs and are very smooth. But any small carry pistol with stiff trigger DA just seems insurmountable at my skill level.

Long ago I practiced a lot with a BeamHit laser target system.

When practicing with the BeamHit every day, the DA control was better. Got worried that eventually might wear out the triggers dry-firing so much. The BeamHit laser is a pretty big gadget that fits the front of the barrel, so it isn't practical for living room draw-fire accuracy practice. Can't holster a gun with the BeamHit laser attached. Hmm, wonder if anyone has made a beamhit-type pulse laser built in a cartridge, so the device can be chambered rather than sitting on the front of the gun?

=====

I'm not mechanically inclined, but the forces during a trigger pull seem to be--

1. Holding the pistol on-target.

2. As the trigger is squeezed, the pistol would want to tip up from the force of the finger against the spring of the top-hinged trigger.

3. So the lower fingers would instinctively tighten to hold the sights on target.

4. When the trigger breaks, the 5 or 10 pound spring pressure is relieved so the extra lower-finger pressure wants to tip the barrel down.

5. (possibly insignificant) The hammer or striker is accelerated forward, tending to raise the barrel.

6. (possibly insignificant) The hammer or striker reaches the end of its forward stroke and delivers its inertia to the gun, tending to lower the barrel.

The inertia of the pistol's mass would damp all those forces so they wouldn't have instant full effect. The different forces would perturb the impulse response of the pistol's mass into a quick and possibly complicated twitch. The shape and size of the twitch would depend on how fast one squeezes the trigger.

So it seems if one could always squeeze the trigger exactly the same speed and technique, it would at least make this early motion pattern predictable.

One thing I might try-- Perhaps it is a counter-productive to try to hold the sights on target in the early trigger pull while compressing the main spring? If the lower finger pressure could be held exactly the same, allowing the barrel to tip slightly up during the trigger pull, then perhaps the barrel would tip back down on-target when the trigger breaks and the spring pressure is relieved? Rather than increasing lower finger pressure to hold on-target, which would tilt the barrel low when the trigger breaks?

[Smith]

Lester I'm with you on the DA. I've tried DA and DA/SA but I just cou;dn'y get used to it. My first HG was a hi-power so the SA feeling trigger was what I was used to. I' hear from guys who got their start on revolvers that DA is a lot more intuitive. I guess my point is what you learn with makes a big difference.

As far as C&L, I've carried that way a lot and never found it to be a problem safety wise. When you think about it it is actually safer than most striker fired carry simply because the safety is not passive. It takes two deliberate actions to fire it as opposed to one.

Also I've found that a low bore axis greatly increases my accuracy. I've heard that with some folks it a non issue, but for me it makes a big difference. So, the combination of a light, clean SA trigger pull combined with a low bore axis is the most accurate combination for me.