Amnesty?

[Guest oldfella]

Could this have anything to do with padding the vote in 2010 & 2012?

This did not come from a Republican friend, either! I hope the Obama supporters like what they voted for! The end of democracy is near…if this trend continues like it’s headed now.

This is a CNN report.

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftc-vi26.wmv

[Mike.357]

The conservative God, Ronald Reagan gave amnesty if I am not mistaken.

He was wrong then and it would be just as wrong to do it now.

[eapking]

And the Dems will be sure to point this out (what Reagan did).

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Before you say Reagan gave amnesty to illegals, you guys might consider:

Take the Reagan Amnesty Pop Quiz!

Interesting information for those who think he caved on the immigration

issue.

[eapking]

Be that as it may, still should not have even been "for temporary residence".

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Temporary residence is not amnesty. They still had to go through hoops to become citizens.

The media has bastardized so much of what Reagan accomplished, most don't have a clue.

BTW ""An armed society is a polite society." - Robert A. Heinlein", I'm reading one of his books now. Good writer. Way ahead of his time:D

Edited July 15, 2010 by 6.8 AR

[LagerHead]

Be that as it may, still should not have even been "for temporary residence".

Maybe, but in our political society, nothing is gained without some concessions. Those concessions were given in return for a promise by Democrats to secure the border. In the end, the Democrats got what they wanted without delivering on their promise. I'd say Reagan deserves somewhat of a break here.

Edited July 15, 2010 by LagerHead

[Guest mosinon]

That's an interesting quiz on. Let's apply it to the Obama plan and see how his Amnesty compares:

Reagan Amnesty Pop Quiz

1. The Reagan Amnesty granted a blanket Amnesty to Illegal Aliens.

2. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic citizenship to Illegal Aliens.

3. The Reagan Amnesty granted citizenship to some Illegal Aliens.

4. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic permanent residence (green cards) to Illegal Aliens.

5. The Reagan Amnesty granted immediate permanent residence (green cards) to some Illegal Aliens.

6. The Reagan Amnesty was granted to Illegal Aliens, free of charge.

Well the answer to all those question are "no" for Reagan. But what about Obama?

Reagan Amnesty Pop Quiz

1. The Reagan Amnesty granted a blanket Amnesty to Illegal Aliens.

Like Reagan, Obama's plan doesn't grant blanket amnesty. Those here illegally will have to pay a fine and so forth to get "right" with the law.

2. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic citizenship to Illegal Aliens.

See this is the kind of question people ask when they think you're stupid. They ask you this because they think you believe that Obama is about to make all the illegal immigrants immediate US citizens. That isn't going to happen. The have to learn english first, pay the fines and go through the citizenship process. They'll even have to pass the test. (the test is remarkably easy, try it here. If you get less than 75% deport yourself. )

3. The Reagan Amnesty granted citizenship to some Illegal Aliens.

Again, I can't find anything anywhere granting instant citizenship to anyone. Except those born here

4. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic permanent residence (green cards) to Illegal Aliens.

Reagan's plan didn't offer this and neither does Obama's plan

5. The Reagan Amnesty granted immediate permanent residence (green cards) to some Illegal Aliens.

Yep, same thing. No immediate green cards for any illegal aliens

6. The Reagan Amnesty was granted to Illegal Aliens, free of charge.

And Obama won't be granting amnesty free of charge either. Gotta pay a fine

So there ya have it, same answers for the quiz.

But check this out:

more of the same, errr, except more

It seems every politician wants immigration reform but the people just don't want it at all. I want immigration reform, make it easier to get here legally, but I get kind of angry when the amnesty talk starts. Not because I have anything against the illegals, I like cheap vegetables, but because I've two good friends who waited to come here legally. These guys did it the right way and now other people will get to pay a fine to get right with the law? That is kind of a smack in the face to those guys for doing the right thing, it is basically saying "man, if you were just willing to break the law you could have been here years earlier and you'd be ahead." Most legal immigrants I know hate the idea of amnesty.

Edited July 15, 2010 by mosinon

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Apples and oranges, besides Obama's "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"

bill isn't law. Stir the pot up effectively. Why aren't the laws, currently on the

books, good enough?

I guess the possibility of Obama using an executive order for amnesty must be

to your liking, also. Why didn't you just go to the mothership "Moveon.org"

for your source?

[mikegideon]

Temporary residence is not amnesty. They still had to go through hoops to become citizens.

The media has bastardized so much of what Reagan accomplished, most don't have a clue.

Amnesty is a broad term. Every time I've heard Obama speak about it, he has said that the iilegals will have to pay a fine, go to the back of the line in the process for gaining citizenship, learn English, etc. In other words, 'we won't deport you if you will comply with immigration law". Enforcing it is gonna be another matter. I'm sure there are liberals out there that just want to wipe the slate clean and hand them citizenship, but I haven't heard it out of Obama. The borders need to be made more secure, but the illegal immigration has been going on for generations. We need to deal with the ones already here.

Reagan and Obama are miles apart on a lot of things, but their positions on immigration... not so much.

[mikegideon]

Apples and oranges, besides Obama's "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"

bill isn't law. Stir the pot up effectively. Why aren't the laws, currently on the

books, good enough?

I guess the possibility of Obama using an executive order for amnesty must be

to your liking, also. Why didn't you just go to the mothership "Moveon.org"

for your source?

Don't the current laws require deportation? Those laws haven't been properly enforced for decades. Simply enforcing them now probably won't work. This is all about politics anyway. The ones that are screaming the loudest are doing so to benefit themselves.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think you're right, Mike! Morning!

[mikegideon]

I think you're right, Mike! Morning!

Morning. I'm fixing to shred my voter registration card and start ignoring those idiots (like I used to).

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Don't you dare do that! They might win.

[mikegideon]

Don't you dare do that! They might win.

Who is they? WE won't win, no matter what. Most of the winners are gonna be people that I wouldn't piss on if their lips were on fire.

[Guest mosinon]

not a big fan of moveon.org. Or dailykos. Or the freepers or any other place that place that values spin over facts.

So, tell me, precisely, where I was wrong? I am open to the possibility, I've been wrong many times. To me, that quiz was pure spin. I could be wrong about it, as I noted earlier I am often wrong.

Now tell me more about this executive order. If it is a broad blanket immunity that happens like magic I will agree that it is substantially different from what Reagan did.

In short, show me why it is apples and oranges.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

mosinon. How many times has Obama had a piece of legislation

come to his desk for a signature to enact that was represented

honestly, to anyone. What are we finding out about the almighty

health care bill every day? There are indications, very obvious

ones, that he wants as many of these illegals to be granted a form

of citizenship that will allow them to vote and mooch off our welfare

and health care system, that is already ruining our country.

What has Obama said, after the election, that is intellectually honest?

He minces words with the best, or worst, whichever you choose.

It's not that you, specifically, were wrong in your statement, but the

apples and oranges part is Reagan's actions became law and Obama's

has yet to be determined. And it will be by some socialist think tank and

take 2000 pages so no one in congress will have read it and it will pass

before it gets scrutinized. Amnesty is wrong, even when republicans do it.

I didn't mean to slap your statements and I agree that it should be easier

to allow legitimate citizens to immigrate, but it should not be a priority

until the problem of illegals is dealt with. There is far too much crime to

be allowing it to continue, and Arizona is being played like a poker hand

by the people who should be protecting our borders. It is listed as a

specific duty of the Federal government in the Constitution and as far

as I'm concerned it is a treasonous act that should also be dealt with.

[Guest PeaShooter]

Question?.....Is it illegal to shoplift? Yes it is.

and people are going to jail not for a couple of weeks , but years!!!!!

Question?.....Is it illegal to jaywalk in certain states? Yes it is.

and we recently saw on the news a police officer enforcing the law.

Interestingly, .....enforcing the law.

Now there is a concept that needs to be admired

in a society to exist as a law abiding society.

One in which one can feel safe and secure.

Now consider the "whistle blowers" on illegals, yes illegals that the state wants to prosecute for informing the public about who is illegal from a database the state has on who is actually illegal in their state.

Two Utah State Workers May Be Behind Leaking of List of 1300 Purported Illegal Immigrants That's Left Latino Community Terrified - ABC News

Leaking of List of Illegal Immigrants in Utah Terrifies Latino Community

Utah Officials Identify Two State Workers Who May Be Behind The Leak of 1300 Names, Addresses, Phone Numbers, and Even Due Dates of Pregnant Women

Illegal is just that,.....Illegal

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Leaking of List of Illegal Immigrants in Utah Terrifies Latino Community

As it should!

[Guest HvyMtl]

Odd, Edwin Meese III, the Attorneys General for Reagan, called it Amnesty.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html

To Quote Meese: "The difference is that President Reagan called this what it was: amnesty. Indeed, look up the term "amnesty" in Black's Law Dictionary, and you'll find it says, "the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act provided amnesty for undocumented aliens already in the country." "

And Another quote: "In exchange for allowing aliens to stay, he (Ronald Reagan) decided, border security and enforcement of immigration laws would be greatly strengthened — in particular, through sanctions against employers who hired illegal immigrants. If jobs were the attraction for illegal immigrants, then cutting off that option was crucial. Beyond this, most illegal immigrants who could establish that they had resided in America continuously for five years would be granted temporary resident status, which could be upgraded to permanent residency after 18 months and, after another five years, to citizenship."

(Bold type added)

Hmm, that sounds like Amnesty to me...

"Note that this path to citizenship was not automatic. Indeed, the legislation stipulated several conditions: immigrants had to pay application fees, learn to speak English, understand American civics, pass a medical exam and register for military selective service. Those with convictions for a felony or three misdemeanors were ineligible.

Sounds ODDLY Familiar... Obama is proposing several of the same limits.

""I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots and lived here, even though sometime back they may have entered illegally..."

Hmm, the quote above sounds similar to what O said, except this statement was Ronald Reagan's during a televised debate with Walter Mondale in 1984.

Dont believe me? How about Michelle Malkin?

Michelle Malkin » Meese: It is amnesty

(Do note they were comparing a possible bill in 2006 for amnesty under the Bush Administration, which was NOT passed...)

Problem is with immigration in general, we are NOT learning from our past mistakes.

Amnesty DID NOT WORK. Why? BECAUSE THE OTHER PARTS OF THE LEGISLATION WAS NOT ENFORCED/ ACTED UPON.

What was that parts of the legislation back in 1986 were not enforced or acted upon?

The parts which Toughened the Border, and WENT AFTER ILLEGAL HIRING...

The amnesty program that tried and failed

Simple fact is, if the US Government had enforced the 1986 law, we would not be in this predicament.

Yet, enforcement was TRIED, and the public outcry and Politicians prevented its enforcement. WHAT will prevent this now? How can we turn the job magnet off, so they wont come here?

Worse, unforeseen in 1986, were the issues of use of Tax Payer $ to house, feed, educate, and heal illegals... Now, if you rent apartments, you cannot say "No" to illegals, or get hit with big discrimination fines. WIC (food stamps), HUD (housing) are not allowed to discriminate against illegals in many cases. And Public Schools cannot ask for proof of citizenship. Hospitals have to treat those who show in their emergency rooms, no matter their citizenship...

HOW do we turn off this support and aid magnet without discriminating against legitimate users?

These are big questions, not answered in 1986, and I believe NOT answered in Obama's proposal...

I do not see either party having the GUTS to enforce laws which are politically hard for them to do so. This has been proven by the political backlash preventing the enforcement of the 1986 law, and its watering down by amendments to the original 1986 law.

Side note: Here is an article by Simpson and Mazzoli sponsors of the bill which became the 1986 law. Interesting...

Romano L. Mazzoli*and *Alan K. Simpson - Enacting Immigration Reform, Again - washingtonpost.com

Notice the lack of accepting blame for failure... and their belief the 1986 legislation is the model for any future legislation... hmm. Setting up for another failure?

Edited July 19, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What is Arizona, and maybe several other states trying to do?

Set up for another failure? They have given up on the Fed giving

assistance with the problem, especially since it is the Fed's

constitutional obligation.

Since you seem to be hung up on sharing the blame with Reagan,

that's fine. The problem is electing people to honor their oath and

responsibility to the document, instead of paying lip service to their

constituents.

Reagan had his own battle against Tom Foley and had to make deals

like every other president. Comprehensive Immigration Reform won't

fix anything. It will just change the rules which the current politicians

will say to their constituents fixed the problem, having opened the

floodgates for more of the same we already have, and bankrupting us

further.

I've not quite given up on our system.

[Guest oldfella]

You are sooo right, my friend. Besides no more amnesty, we need to give a one-way out ticket to those ultra liberals in Washington and start over with a clean slate. How do we do that? By getting off our duffs and participate in the process. If we leave it to some else to do it, it will not get done.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Arizona is trying to get the Fed Govt to do something. Sadly, the response was to sue Arizona, and not enforce the law...

Politicians on both sides of the aisle prevented the enforcement, and watered down the law through passing others.

The Republicans feared the negative impact on business. The Democrats have found new immigrants become Democrats. (Stats I have seen list it 60-70%)

The main issue is simply this: A new law is coming. So? Without enforcement - severely punishing those who hire illegals plus blocking social aid - we will be no better off.

Amnesty was a mistake. And since the US did it once, it is now expected to be done again...

I see NO possibility from either party to get this fixed. Both sides are talking the talk, but have shown they refuse to walk the walk...

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Both sides have not just talked the talk, but if that's the way you

view a split government, there will be very little anyone can do.

There is a decidedly left leaning government right now. The

republican party has never, in my lifetime, had a filibuster proof

majority in the senate, and it doesn't look like it will happen for

a while, if ever. I'm not as concerned with the democrats because

they are imploding, as we speak. I am more concerned with the

republicans and see the Tea Party as a renaissance movement

within the party, and would like to see a majority of that type of

republican and democrat in control of our government, plus get

rid of that communist in the White House. Only then will we have a

chance of solving our immigration problem, and not through amnesty.

But that involves people becoming more involved in their representation

and discussing real issues amongst each other and not cowering or

giving up their rights by sitting on the sideline, while fewer people

vote for the establishment parties. A renewal of conservative values,

or libertarian values, can change our country back to what it was and

that involves the effort of every conservative/libertarian voter, not just

a few angry ones. The few will never reach a majority until the ones

that have gone to the sidelines have become engaged again. That is

exactly what caused the Tea Party to become a reality.

The only way to defeat tyranny is to do what the democrats have been

doing for a hundred or more years: unify and consolidate, except under

different conditions. Those conditions set up by the founders are the

ideas embraced by Tea Partiers, but you won't see it stated like that

from the media outlets. Until everyone understands history and human

nature, our country will suffer, because of the complacency of a large

group that have gone to the sidelines.

Immigration reform is not the answer. Catching criminals and deporting

them is. Work on your representation or suffer the fate of tyranny. If you

give up, you get what you deserve. If you work a little harder and become

involved, what you get will be a reward, instead of a dying country.

What else is there? Another revolution?

[Guest kahrmk]

Is there a benefit from this country becoming another third world Latin American country with a Mestizo majority? No. I'm sick of these demographic changes, 'racist' or not... Whites are a minority in the world and we're supposed to cheer on losing our country and culture? When will it end?