Chicago's tough new gun ordinance goes into effect

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Driving a car. riding a horse, stagecoach, airplane or bus never was

considered a right. There's nothing in the Bill of Rights, or anywhere

else, that implies transportation a "right".

Once again, government tyranny, self protection and use of a militia

to protect this country from enemies is what the 2nd amendment is

about. The literal meaning, when it was written, is good enough for

me. It doesn't need to and shouldn't be manipulated by those that

think the constitution is a living document and should be modernized

to suit the current days needs. Watch how you make your bed. You

may have to sleep in it, sometime.

Throughout the years the laws have been bastardized just enough

to make most comfortable without realizing the consequences of

doing that. It's a trapdoor that allows future nonsense to happen.

If one is consistently following the constitution and makes laws that

comply with the original words, this would have never happened

and we wouldn't be talking about this issue. The inconsistent laws

need to be erased and rewritten to reflect constitutionality. I am

not saying that will ever happen, but that is the right course.

Someone prove me wrong.

If criminals were punished accordingly for their behaviour, and we

quit expecting the government to do everything for us, we wouldn't

be in this mess.

Please don't try to rationalize driving a car with protecting yourself

by a God Given Right(or a natural right).

Just because a lawmaker in a congress somewhere is in session

doesn't mean he or she has to pass a law.

Consistency, ever heard of it?

[DaveTN]

Someone prove me wrong.

About your views on the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment? Okay.

When you can travel anywhere in this country without being jailed for the simple act of carrying a loaded gun; carrying will be an individual right. Until that happens the carrying of guns will be decided by the state because it is a State Right that the SCOTUS nor any other branch of the Federal Government has jack to say about.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Why don't you read what I wrote, again, okay? While you

wish to argue about modern day interpretation, you fall into

the trapdoor of progressivism, that which is what the problem

is. I stated what the founders intended. That's all. Depends

on what side of the bed you get out of, DaveTN. It just shows

the wrong people have been in charge of this country for far

too long. If that's what you wish, that's what you get.

Try again:D

Elena Kagan is a prime example, but enough are not interested

in changing the politics, because it's too easy to sit back and

let it happen.

[Guest crotalus01]

Wow, so I can register a Cobray but not a Hi Point??? Ooooookay.....

And this one really meade me laugh : Chicago Firearms Company — Chicago Protector and Protector models

[Guest crotalus01]

Everyone should have a silencer

And they are called sound suppressors not silencers. Silencers are fairy tale devices that only exist in movies. We wish they were real but sadly they are not.

Why risk your hearing when you hear that window break during the night? Defending your family should not cost your hearing. :)

Sorry, but fail. Hiram Maxim, who invented the silencer, NAMED it a "silencer", not a "sound suppressor". While it is true that suppressor is a much more accurate description of what it does, the reason that the name "silencer" fell out of favor was from the bad rap they got in the movies during the 60s. Kinda like how people think Black Talons were banned when Winchester simply changed the name to Ranger SXT (Same eXact Thing so the joke goes)...

[Worriedman]

When you can travel anywhere in this country without being jailed for the simple act of carrying a loaded gun; carrying will be an individual right. Until that happens the carrying of guns will be decided by the state because it is a State Right that the SCOTUS nor any other branch of the Federal Government has jack to say about.

States have no Rights, they have Powers. People have Rights. No governmental entity has any Rights, they simply have Powers granted by the will of the governed, be that City, County, State or Federal Governments.

[DaveTN]

States have no Rights, they have Powers. People have Rights. No governmental entity has any Rights, they simply have Powers granted by the will of the governed, be that City, County, State or Federal Governments.

Put whatever name on it you like. We fought the worst war this nation has ever fought over it and the name they put on it was States Rights. I’ll continue to use that; it’s to the point and everyone understands what it means when they hear it.

[Worriedman]

Calling something one thing when it is something else is a trick of the Progressives, Comprehensive Immigration Reform=Amnesty for example.

A basic understanding of the difference seems germane to the discussion. The Federal Constitution is a list of Powers granted to the government by the People. The 10th Amendment states the restrictions, unless the Powers are enumerated in the Constitution, (or specifically taken from the States by the Federal Constitution) the Federal government is bereft of the Power to control an issue, it is left to the States, and in the case of a lack of enumeration in the State Constitutions, to the People. Meaning, that the Legislators of the various States are responsible to resolve any question not specifically listed in the Constitution, or the various Amendments.

This Republic is supposed to be a Government of the People, and by the People. When the People get lazy and fail to establish their authority, you wind up with what we have now. The President and all legislators are to be SERVANTS of the People. The Founders understood that Democracy equals mob rule, and set forth a map by which the rules would work in favor of the People, not a ruling elite. That is why the numbers required to add an Amendment are set where they are, 2/3 majority of both Houses of the Fed. Legislature to put forth an Amendment, and then 3/4 majority of the State Legislatures to ratify, (or a called Constitutional Convention by 2/3 of the State Legislatures) which still requires a 3/4 majority of the State Legislatures or Conventions to ratify.

The Federal gov. is supposed to operate at the behest of the various States, however, the Bill of Rights, and the various Amendments which speak to Rights of the People are to be forever inviolate. There is but one mention of the word "Right" in the Federal Constitution, and it is used to prevent the Federal Gov. from trampling on the individual. Rights are listed in the Amendments to the Constitution.

The Constitution is a list of chains place on the Federal government by the People, and the Amendments are a listing of Rights of the People, guarantees against the government intruding on those God given, and important enough to be listed, Rights.

It is important that the least of us understand the difference.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Worriedman

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yeh, Worriedman, they seemed to have quit teaching that in our schools.

Glad you stated it. Others assume whatever the media says is true, also,

and continue the myths. A natural right in the Bill of rights cannot be

taken by a city or state, or taxed by such. The Bill of Rights was put in and

amended to the Constitution to protect the people from states and the federal

government usurping those rights. It wasn't put in there because it was

pretty. Look at how it gets beat up every day by people wanting to trash

the Constitution outright.

The more people understand the document, the less it can be encroached upon.

Do like the Heritage Foundation recommends and carry it with you. Just a few

pages in a little booklet, and it doesn't need a lawyer to interpret. Probably

the best document ever written, and it needs to be cherished by more Americans!

[DaveTN]

A natural right in the Bill of rights cannot be taken by a city or state, or taxed by such.

It certainly can.

The “Right to Bear Arms†is totally ignored by most states including Tennessee. Tennessee looks better than some states because they allow it for special people that are willing to pay the tax.

All this fanfare because the SCOTUS decided to hear a couple of gun cases.

Does a citizen have the right to carry a gun in Tennessee? No, you do not have a right to do that.

Can you carry a gun in Illinois? No, you do not have a right to do that.

And all this while the SCOTUS stands silent on the right to bear arms.

I was in Illinois when the McDonald decision was released. I ask my friends if they were going to rush out and buy carry holsters. They didn’t think it was funny.

How in the world can you have the right to own guns but not the right to bear them if you are making the argument the right to own comes from the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment? You can’t. But the SCOTUS dared not to cross that line because of States Rights. Make any argument you want about the Constitution but the issue of States Rights tore this county apart long after the founding Fathers were dead and changed things forever.

States Rights is a good thing not a bad thing. Our federal government is out of control. States Rights is the only thing that will keep Obama from driving crap like his health care plan down everyone’s throats.

If you want States Rights AND you want rights under the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment; move to Vermont or Alaska they are the only two states I know of that recognize the right to carry. However I think Alaska sees it as a State Right.

Do like the Heritage Foundation recommends and carry it with you. Just a few pages in a little booklet, and it doesn't need a lawyer to interpret. Probably the best document ever written, and it needs to be cherished by more Americans!

It is cherished by many Americans including the anti-gun people. But the fact that you can read doesn’t make it clear. We all read what we want into it. The pro gun people quote the last part of it and the anti-gun people quote the first part of it.

I know this… I don’t want to tie my ability to carry a gun off my property to it.

[Worriedman]

The “Right to Bear Arms” is totally ignored by most states including Tennessee. Tennessee looks better than some states because they allow it for special people that are willing to pay the tax.

Tennessee does not totally ignore the Right, the Legislature has Powers granted by the People to regulate the wearning of arms with a view to prevent crime. Any person who is not precluded by law, i.e. convicted felons, the mentally challenged, those convicted of DUI infractions, and those who refuse to honor their obligations to their children or are under orders of a court can, if they so choose and desire, obtain permission to carry on their person a handgun, otherwise, no Citizen who passes the restrictions can be denied the ability to own a firearm. A handful of restrictions does not equate to a total ignoring of the 2nd Amendment. The "special People" are those who CANNOT own a firearm in Tennessee.

It is not the States that ignore the "Right to Bear Arms", it is the People IN the States that ignore that. The States count on the People to be sheep, and to allow a few to rule the rest. If more of the People understood the true nature of the Constitution, and what it really speaks to, and held their State Legislatures to the standard that exist, then the Feds nor the States would be able to hoodwink the People and usurp the Powers they do not really have.

As long as one Citizens says to the next "We must let the government (of any nature) do as they will!" we are doomed to servitude. If the general public believes we must allow the Feds their way, it will continue to use us as the kind of bags of energy so aptly displayed in the Matrix. Mr. Smith may in fact show up at my door, but I refuse to lay down and take his opinion any more without challenge.

The way to change this is to become involved in the political process on a local level, get to know the people you send to the State Legislature on an intimate level. Find and support the right kind of candidates, then hold them accountable for their actions. Put anti-Federalist in the office of Governor, elect responsible persons to the Federal Legislature. Follow the example of our Founders and get some skin in the game. I may not be on the winning side of any campaign this year, but it will not be because I was disinterested....

Only an individual can have a Right. Governments are invested with Powers granted by the will of an amalgamation of individuals. Governments have duties, and are to be limited in their actions by the Citizens they serve. Until that is once again understood by the populace, we will continue to slide to a totalitarian form of repression at the hands of ruling elite who would be the masters of all they survey, and if we allow it to happen, it is our own fault. The Federal Government can only take what we allow them to have.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Worriedman

[timcalhoun]

Historically we have seen both sides take the position that the constitution limits the power of the Fed only, and does not apply to the states. Convenient depending on your cause, but completely bogus. SCOTUS only will hear cases brought before them and then only the cases that they feel needs attention. So, much of this idiocy has not played out in the courts.

The supremacy clause should satisfy any doubt you have about applying the constitution to the states. (and yes I know the catalyst behind it was treaty law but it does not only apply to treaty law hence the AND LOL). The 14th amendment was written to ensure former slaves automatic citizenship and the rights guaranteed by the constitution itself.

The right to bear arms does not end at you property line just as your freedom of speech does not. The fact that States infringe upon your rights does not mean they are not still unalienable rights.

[DaveTN]

Tennessee does not totally ignore the Right, the Legislature has Powers granted by the People to regulate the wearning of arms with a view to prevent crime. Any person who is not precluded by law, i.e. convicted felons, the mentally challenged, those convicted of DUI infractions, and those who refuse to honor their obligations to their children or are under orders of a court can, if they so choose and desire, obtain permission to carry on their person a handgun, otherwise, no Citizen who passes the restrictions can be denied the ability to own a firearm. A handful of restrictions does not equate to a total ignoring of the 2nd Amendment. The "special People" are those who CANNOT own a firearm in Tennessee.

You are describing a privilege not a right.

It is not the States that ignore the "Right to Bear Arms", it is the People IN the States that ignore that. The States count on the People to be sheep, and to allow a few to rule the rest. If more of the People understood the true nature of the Constitution, and what it really speaks to, and held their State Legislatures to the standard that exist, then the Feds nor the States would be able to hoodwink the People and usurp the Powers they do not really have.

As long as one Citizens says to the next "We must let the government (of any nature) do as they will!" we are doomed to servitude. If the general public believes we must allow the Feds their way, it will continue to use us as the kind of bags of energy so aptly displayed in the Matrix. Mr. Smith may in fact show up at my door, but I refuse to lay down and take his opinion any more without challenge.

So burn your HCP card and open carry. When you get stopped and the cop asks for your HCP card hand him a TFA card. Check back and let us know how that works out for you.

I have already played that game I can save you some money if you like. So please don’t give me this bs of what we “allowâ€

The way to change this is to become involved in the political process on a local level, get to know the people you send to the State Legislature on an intimate level. Find and support the right kind of candidates, then hold them accountable for their actions. Put anti-Federalist in the office of Governor, elect responsible persons to the Federal Legislature. Follow the example of our Founders and get some skin in the game. I may not be on the winning side of any campaign this year, but it will not be because I was disinterested....

People want money and jobs. Our economy is in desperate trouble. If that is not fixed the Constitution and the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment will be meaningless. We need leaders that will let the American people know that the choice is up to them. Political leaders can’t fix the mess we have gotten ourselves into; only the people can. I would vote for the President of the Brady Campaign for Governor if I thought he had a plan to bring good jobs to the state.

Only an individual can have a Right. Governments are invested with Powers granted by the will of an amalgamation of individuals. Governments have duties, and are to be limited in their actions by the Citizens they serve. Until that is once again understood by the populace, we will continue to slide to a totalitarian form of repression at the hands of ruling elite who would be the masters of all they survey, and if we allow it to happen, it is our own fault. The Federal Government can only take what we allow them to have.

Still hung up on that term “States Rights huh? Deal with it; we fought a war over it. maybe you remember hearing about it.

We have a President that is out of control. The United States Congress is letting him do as he pleases. You better hope there is such a thing as States Rights because right now it is all that is standing between us and him.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It certainly can.

The “Right to Bear Arms†is totally ignored by most states including Tennessee. Tennessee looks better than some states because they allow it for special people that are willing to pay the tax.

All this fanfare because the SCOTUS decided to hear a couple of gun cases.

Does a citizen have the right to carry a gun in Tennessee? No, you do not have a right to do that.

Barbara Streisand!

Can you carry a gun in Illinois? No, you do not have a right to do that.

And all this while the SCOTUS stands silent on the right to bear arms.

Illinois is getting their comeuppance as we speak. Incorporation, and it isn't over, yet.

I was in Illinois when the McDonald decision was released. I ask my friends if they were going to rush out and buy carry holsters. They didn’t think it was funny.

Maybe they need to get a sense of humor and use it, occasionally.

How in the world can you have the right to own guns but not the right to bear them if you are making the argument the right to own comes from the 2^nd amendment? You can’t. But the SCOTUS dared not to cross that line because of States Rights. Make any argument you want about the Constitution but the issue of States Rights tore this county apart long after the founding Fathers were dead and changed things forever.

The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with states rights, DaveTN The right of the "people" to keep and bear arms.

States Rights is a good thing not a bad thing. Our federal government is out of control. States Rights is the only thing that will keep Obama from driving crap like his health care plan down everyone’s throats.

If you want States Rights AND you want rights under the 2^nd amendment; move to Vermont or Alaska they are the only two states I know of that recognize the right to carry. However I think Alaska sees it as a State Right.

What they "see" isn't what the 2nd Amendment is all about. The states will have to adopt the 2nd as is, one of these days. That is what SCOTUS confirmed. They left the door open for a lot more challenge of existing law.

It is cherished by many Americans including the anti-gun people. But the fact that you can read doesn’t make it clear. We all read what we want into it. The pro gun people quote the last part of it and the anti-gun people quote the first part of it.

I know this… I don’t want to tie my ability to carry a gun off my property to it.

I will. That document separates the citizens from the subjects.

The 2nd has nothing to do with states rights vs the federal government. The fed has to enforce the acceptance of it, when the states

restrict it. The states that joined the union did so with the Bill of Rights understood. That has to be enforced, eventually.

The only way it will happen is by electing people like Worriedman suggested. Get involved in the election process and quit arguing

your version of practicality. It's not what the founders wrote. Also, what Worriedman said about powers is so valid. The only group

that has rights is the individual, not the state or federal government. The individual also has the power.

The only kind of argument to use states powers as opposed to federal power is one

like is happening with the health care bill. The US Constitution doesn't give the federal government the right or the ability to force you or I to buy health care insurance.

Play with that a while if you wish to grapple with states rights, but don't include the

2nd in that grappling, because it doesn't belong there. There are many other laws that

should be wiped off the face of the earth because we let them get away with it, we

the people, that is. That's why it's so important to get it right in the voting booth.

[timcalhoun]

The 5th amendment is an individual right that every person can evoke during any State Court trial and is recognized by all 50 states because they have to. The reason it goes by without challenge is because it has been fleshed out long ago in the Supreme Court. That is the only difference between it and the 2nd. We are just now starting to flesh out the second and as each new case is brought to the court, they will have to rule on each new challenge until it is settled. And at that point there will be zero wiggle room for the states just like the 5th. States have been getting away with infringing on your 2nd amendments rights because they have gone unchallenged. That's all.

And depending on the makeup of SCOTUS at the time, that will dictate what challenges will be brought up and by who. And you better hope the court will look at least as good as it does now or we are in trouble since the left does not rule original intent. But make no mistake, after it is settled the 2nd and all of it's subsequent rulings will apply to all states.

Edited August 2, 2010 by timcalhoun

[JayC]

Worried,

I'm generally on your side on these things... but I think you missed an important part of the bill of rights..

The 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The 2nd Amendment is a right protected for the people... NOT the states... The 10th Amendment clearly states that rights protected 'to the people' limits the ability of both the federal and state governments to infringe on those rights.

Dave is correct, the state currently does NOT recognize our rights protected under the 2nd amendment (nor under the TN constitution). If you're argument was true, then explain to me how TICS is constitutional?

We have a god given right to keep and bear arms, or to use more common language to own and carry arms.... Just because the government we currently live under doesn't correctly reconize that right doesn't mean we don't have it. The truth is what the government (both federal and state) does to us as citizens is far worse than what England did to the colonies before the revolutionary war IMHO.

Tennessee does not totally ignore the Right, the Legislature has Powers granted by the People to regulate the wearning of arms with a view to prevent crime. Any person who is not precluded by law, i.e. convicted felons, the mentally challenged, those convicted of DUI infractions, and those who refuse to honor their obligations to their children or are under orders of a court can, if they so choose and desire, obtain permission to carry on their person a handgun, otherwise, no Citizen who passes the restrictions can be denied the ability to own a firearm. A handful of restrictions does not equate to a total ignoring of the 2nd Amendment. The "special People" are those who CANNOT own a firearm in Tennessee.

It is not the States that ignore the "Right to Bear Arms", it is the People IN the States that ignore that. The States count on the People to be sheep, and to allow a few to rule the rest. If more of the People understood the true nature of the Constitution, and what it really speaks to, and held their State Legislatures to the standard that exist, then the Feds nor the States would be able to hoodwink the People and usurp the Powers they do not really have.

As long as one Citizens says to the next "We must let the government (of any nature) do as they will!" we are doomed to servitude. If the general public believes we must allow the Feds their way, it will continue to use us as the kind of bags of energy so aptly displayed in the Matrix. Mr. Smith may in fact show up at my door, but I refuse to lay down and take his opinion any more without challenge.

The way to change this is to become involved in the political process on a local level, get to know the people you send to the State Legislature on an intimate level. Find and support the right kind of candidates, then hold them accountable for their actions. Put anti-Federalist in the office of Governor, elect responsible persons to the Federal Legislature. Follow the example of our Founders and get some skin in the game. I may not be on the winning side of any campaign this year, but it will not be because I was disinterested....

Only an individual can have a Right. Governments are invested with Powers granted by the will of an amalgamation of individuals. Governments have duties, and are to be limited in their actions by the Citizens they serve. Until that is once again understood by the populace, we will continue to slide to a totalitarian form of repression at the hands of ruling elite who would be the masters of all they survey, and if we allow it to happen, it is our own fault. The Federal Government can only take what we allow them to have.

[Worriedman]

You are describing a privilege not a right.

The Tennessee Constitution describes it as a Right, (under State Powers) we simply need to elect the correct Legislators to get it put back where it needs to be. We are still under the Carpetbaggers rules, but I hope that changes shortly. You are correct that sloth and indifference have led to a status where that Right has been overly restricted, as is given as a power to the State Legislature. We must remedy that.

So burn your HCP card and open carry. When you get stopped and the cop asks for your HCP card hand him a TFA card. Check back and let us know how that works out for you.

I have already played that game I can save you some money if you like. So please don’t give me this bs of what we “allowâ€

I am smart enough to "Render unto Caesar" till we get the rules (or law) changed. Just because it is so at the time, does not make it correct. I will use my TFA card to advocate change to the status quo to my neighbors and fellow gun owners, the folks I go to Church with, and any one I can get to stand still and listen. I will proffer my money and labor to candidates that see things the way I do.

If you were under some illusion that you could fight the current laws by attempting some breach, I honor the attempt, but I question the wisdom of doing so. I prefer to change the laws than to break them.

People want money and jobs. Our economy is in desperate trouble. If that is not fixed the Constitution and the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment will be meaningless. We need leaders that will let the American people know that the choice is up to them. Political leaders can’t fix the mess we have gotten ourselves into; only the people can. I would vote for the President of the Brady Campaign for Governor if I thought he had a plan to bring good jobs to the state.

That is the difference in the two of us, I will not support the Brady Campaign's view if they gave me tons of gold. If your liberty is worth so little as to accept the boot of tyranny on your neck to sustain your life, then so be it. I have worked for my living my whole life, and will continue to. If the economy goes completely to pot, I am going to be able to feed my family, and have clean drinking water, even if they turn the light switch off. I know how to get by on less, as it is how I started out, and, I have laid by in store for that possibility.

Still hung up on that term “States Rights huh?

I am, as I can understand the printed word, and have read and studied the Constitution, The Articles of the Federation, and most everything I can get my hands on from the period of the Founders. I know the Constitution is a different document than the Bill of Rights, and why and who decried the necessity of adding it to our structure.

Deal with it; we fought a war over it. maybe you remember hearing about it.

I sure did, I suspect I am closer to the knowledge of what it did to this part of the country than are you. The term "States Rights" was a misnomer then, and it is today. How did the ascertation work for those who tried it then? I have no illusions, but I know the facts, and I understand the language. I have studied the causal reasons for it as well, and the desire to force a view of what a group of economist with the ear of the stronger side should be, had more to do with it's inception than some notion of humanity.

We have a President that is out of control.

As we did in instance you cite above, suspension of Habeas Corpus, and other Unconstitutional acts. That war was trumped up on a straw man footing, and it was disastrous for the loser. Then the winning side did it's best to drag out the conquest. It was as much about the economy as our present War is. Our current Article 1 Section 26 of the Declaration of Rights in Tennessee is a direct result of the usurpation by that administration, very akin to what is happening to the Union today.

You better hope there is such a thing as States Rights because right now it is all that is standing between us and him.

I know that the States have Powers granted to them that the Federal Gov. does not have. The Powers given the Fed. gov. by the States are enumerated, specifically by the Federal Constitution. I also know that no government of any kind has any Right. Governments are simply instruments obligated to carry out the will of the People.

I do know that we need to re-assert our Rights as granted by both the Federal and State Constitutions. I also know that they have been infringed. It is up to the individual Citizens to take steps to restore them.