Do plastic guide rods have any advantages?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

All the parts in my recently purchased italian-made Beretta 92FS Inox appear identical to the parts in my old 92FS Inox, EXCEPT the new one has a plastic guide rod.

So far the plastic guide rod doesn't appear to affect function. The new one may be more accurate out of the box than the old one. It took a break-in period for the old one to become a tack driver, and the new one is grouping as good or better than the old one.

But it seems more desirable to have a metal guide rod in there, unless there are actual advantages to a plastic guide rod?

Thanks

[Guest 10mm4me]

Plastic guide rods are cheaper to manufacture and replace. They also take away, be it just a little, from the overall weight of the gun. They don't seem to detract from performance at all. Just look at the Glock. Granted, if you fire around 1,000 rds straight, and I mean non-stop, you will prob melt the guide rod. But who shoots that much with out at least a few minutes between firings. I know it is easy to think steel is always better, but it just ain't so.

[eapking]

About to do my first recoil spring replacement on my G26 from the factory plastic (multi-spring) to a metal after market multi-spring. We'll see if there's any difference.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks for the good ideas. From the first test last weekend, the plastic guide rod seemed to work fine. Was just curious if a plastic guide rod would have any advantages except price and slight weight savings.

I assume the guide rod in the old Beretta 92FS Inox is stainless. It will attract a magnet, and has the same finish as the stainless slide and aluminum frame.

Another curiosity question-- If both steel and plastic are fine for a guide rod in this 92FS, wonder if a 6061 aluminum guide rod would work? It looks like something that would be pretty easy to make in a mini-lathe and I have various 6061 rod in the shop. Have read that aluminum-steel interfaces can spall or electrolytically corrode. So one usually uses either stainless screws or those black oxide machine screws with aluminum. The beretta recoil spring is very shiny. Maybe it is chromed? Dunno much about metals.

If attempting a stainless guide rod, what stainless would be good? This reference says 303 stainless is fairly machinable. Never ran any stainless thru the mini-lathe. Dunno how much of an adventure that would be. Dunno if it would be necessary to try to harden the part after machining.

Guide to Buying Stainless Steel Online | Online Metals Guide to Selecting Metals for Your Project

Of course I could just buy a stainless guide rod if the plastic was aesthetically objectionable, but what would be the fun in that?

[DWARREN123]

Need to watch aluminum because it is highly abrasive. That is why guide rods are plastic, steel or stainless steel.

Some types of stainless will attract a magnet while other types will not. Depends on composition/chemistry.

[BigK]

I don't know what the frame of our new Beretta is made of, so this may not apply. I asked CZ-USA about replacing my plastic guide rod with a stainless one and they were quick to warn me not to. Their claim is that the head of the guide rod that keeps the rear end of the spring against the barrel lug also touches the frame. Since they lightened the P-01 by using an aluminum alloy instead of steel on the frame, the steel guide rod would gouge the frame and do damage.

Luckily, some nice folks on the CZ forum I also read showed some pics. Several folks (I suspect light shooters) had no damage, but I saw some pics of the gouges on some higher-round count weapons. That lead me to believe this would be even more damaging if the frame was plastic, but you decide for yourself or ask the mfg. or a gunsmith. Maybe this is only specific to CZ's.

[K191145]

When I first saw the guid rod in my G21 I thought that it was something that belongs in a Matell suction cup dart gun. I had to convince myself it was okay.

[mikegideon]

I don't know what the frame of our new Beretta is made of, so this may not apply. I asked CZ-USA about replacing my plastic guide rod with a stainless one and they were quick to warn me not to. Their claim is that the head of the guide rod that keeps the rear end of the spring against the barrel lug also touches the frame. Since they lightened the P-01 by using an aluminum alloy instead of steel on the frame, the steel guide rod would gouge the frame and do damage.

Luckily, some nice folks on the CZ forum I also read showed some pics. Several folks (I suspect light shooters) had no damage, but I saw some pics of the gouges on some higher-round count weapons. That lead me to believe this would be even more damaging if the frame was plastic, but you decide for yourself or ask the mfg. or a gunsmith. Maybe this is only specific to CZ's.

If you look at all the testing that was done on the P01, you gotta think that a plastic guide rod isn't a problem.

CZ-USA -> CZ P-01 gets NATO approval. The next Generation of perfect pistols

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Need to watch aluminum because it is highly abrasive. That is why guide rods are plastic, steel or stainless steel.

Some types of stainless will attract a magnet while other types will not. Depends on composition/chemistry.

Thanks, DWARREN123. Good to know.

I don't know what the frame of our new Beretta is made of, so this may not apply. I asked CZ-USA about replacing my plastic guide rod with a stainless one and they were quick to warn me not to. Their claim is that the head of the guide rod that keeps the rear end of the spring against the barrel lug also touches the frame. Since they lightened the P-01 by using an aluminum alloy instead of steel on the frame, the steel guide rod would gouge the frame and do damage.

Luckily, some nice folks on the CZ forum I also read showed some pics. Several folks (I suspect light shooters) had no damage, but I saw some pics of the gouges on some higher-round count weapons. That lead me to believe this would be even more damaging if the frame was plastic, but you decide for yourself or ask the mfg. or a gunsmith. Maybe this is only specific to CZ's.

That is a good point. Maybe plastic would be a superior guide rod material. Assuming one does replacement when necessary. Maybe 'necessary' is many thousands of rounds?

AFAIK, all the 92FS have aluminum alloy frames and steel everything else. Saw a picture of one USA Inox 92FS that supposedly had plastic trigger and decocker handles. I'd always assumed the black'n'white inox models were blued steel on the black parts. Maybe some newer black 92FS also have certain plastic parts? Dunno.

This new Italian 92FS Inox is all stainless and aluminum except guide rod. Appears virtually identical to my 10 year old Inox. Dunno enough about metal to know what to be impressed about, but maybe the finishing metallurgy is very good on the Inox. It is a silver matte finish, and the color/texture of the aluminum frame is very nearly identical to the matte color/texture of the slide and guide rod and other stainless parts. Maybe that is an expert trick, making dissimilar metals look so similar?

The aluminum frame must be a pretty tough alloy. The old gun has at least 5000 rounds down the barrel, and the only wear-polished areas on the frame are small places on the front leading edge of the frame-slide grooves, and those small areas showed wear-polishing very early. The guide rod and spring apparently does not touch the frame except at the butt of the guide rod, because there are no wear marks or gouges inside the frame.

The old 92's stainless guide rod has the same matte-silver finish as the rest of the gun, and must be some pretty tough metal or finish. The guide rod's matte-sliver finish is factory-new with no marks anywhere on the guide rod. One would expect the spring to polish the rod at least a little bit, after a few thousand rounds. I have other pistols where the guide rod shows 'polishing' from friction with the spring. Especially evident on some blued guide rods.

Speaking of CZ's, recently bought a CZ 85 Combat from a TGO member. Was testing the CZ 85 and the new 92 Inox side-by-side at the range. Was having a 'shaky hands' day, but both pistols were putting most shots in about a 4 inch diameter circle at 7 yards.

A couple of nice 20-something fellers shot both the 92 and CZ 85. Lots better than me. One of em fell in love with the 92, and the other fell in love with the CZ 85. One of the guys was literally tearing one ragged hole at 7 yards with the CZ 85.

It was surprising both guns seemed very similar in accuracy. 92 has reputation of 'combat accuracy' and CZ more 'target accuracy'. So maybe the new 92 is 'better than average' out of the box. Dunno if a plastic guide rod would make any difference in accuracy.

When first got into shooting, bought an old beat-up blued police-trade-in 92FS. It had more shiny spots than blue and had been shot a lot. That thing seemed a tack driver at the time given my poor skill. Really liked it, but it was so ugly and worn-out looking, traded it in on my first inox 92. Was initially disappointed by the first inox 92 because it wasn't as accurate as the old beat-up police trade-in until after about 1000 rounds. After about 1000 rounds it became very consistent.

I need to carefully side-by-side compare this new 92 with the old one, re accuracy. The new one seems at least as accurate or possibly more accurate out of the box as the old broken-in 92. Dunno if this is just an above-average out of the box new sample, or maybe the new ones are a little tighter than previous generations.

Aside from the plastic guide rod, the recoil spring on the new one seems stiffer. It is no problemo compressing the spring reassembling the old 92, but the new spring takes some work to reassemble. Also, the new one will occasionally stovepipe light target reloads that the old one has always cycled 100%. Another indication that the new spring is stiffer.

What are the odds that putting a stiffer spring and/or a plastic guide rod in the old 92, would make any improvement in its accuracy?

[extremescene]

I've read that some manufacturer's started using plastic guide rods since they are self lubricating and can help performance in desert conditions, such as the middle-east. Combine that with saving money and we'll likely have plastic guide rods on everything.

[JAB]

Kel Tec P11's come with a plastic guide rod. You can get a metal replacement but I have seen warnings (with pics) from other owners that a metal guide rod will wallow out the hole in the front of the slide that the guide rod passes through under recoil. The plastic guide rod works just as well and will not wallow out the hole.

[leroy]

Thanks for the good ideas. From the first test last weekend, the plastic guide rod seemed to work fine. Was just curious if a plastic guide rod would have any advantages except price and slight weight savings.

I assume the guide rod in the old Beretta 92FS Inox is stainless. It will attract a magnet, and has the same finish as the stainless slide and aluminum frame.

Another curiosity question-- If both steel and plastic are fine for a guide rod in this 92FS, wonder if a 6061 aluminum guide rod would work? It looks like something that would be pretty easy to make in a mini-lathe and I have various 6061 rod in the shop. Have read that aluminum-steel interfaces can spall or electrolytically corrode. So one usually uses either stainless screws or those black oxide machine screws with aluminum. The beretta recoil spring is very shiny. Maybe it is chromed? Dunno much about metals.

If attempting a stainless guide rod, what stainless would be good? This reference says 303 stainless is fairly machinable. Never ran any stainless thru the mini-lathe. Dunno how much of an adventure that would be. Dunno if it would be necessary to try to harden the part after machining.

Guide to Buying Stainless Steel Online | Online Metals Guide to Selecting Metals for Your Project

Of course I could just buy a stainless guide rod if the plastic was aesthetically objectionable, but what would be the fun in that?

Lester:______________

I suspect that that the magnetic material in the guide rod is a martensitic stainless steel (400 series). Martensitic stainless is harder than the 300 series steels; and most are magnetic, as i remember. That being said; my guess is that making a guide rod from 300 series stainless would be ok. The springs may cut the rod a little bit; but it will be pleny strong for that particular use. All it does is to keep the spring straight during recoil. There are those, im sure, who would advise against using a 300 series stainless because it is a bit softer and subject to galling; but i cant see that happening with a recoil guide rod. I would get out my tools and make me a custom guide rod if i wuz you and have a big time doing it!! Let us know how it turns out.

PS: Wouldnt bother with the aluminum guide rod job. Aluminum is too soft.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[I_Like_Pie]

It really isn't just because of the cost savings for manufacture.

They don't rust

They are lighter

They are cheaper to replace

They are somewhat self lubricating

Their flexibility may actually make them a bit more reliable....Have had a metal 92 jamb up before on reassembly simply because the guide rod was binding from sloppy tolerences/casting marks.

[tnhawk]

The guide rod on my Beretta is steel. The main advantage of the plastic is cost.

[Oh Shoot]

XD guide rods are steel.

That's why they can complete the 1,000 round torture test without melting the guide rod, like a Glock.

An important consideration for the Zombie Apocalypse.

- OS

[mikegideon]

XD guide rods are steel.

That's why they can complete the 1,000 round torture test without melting the guide rod, like a Glock.

An important consideration for the Zombie Apocalypse.

- OS

Got zombies? Fire up the Mini 14 and leave the XD in your pants.

My CZ P01 has a plastic rod and a metal frame. It will outrun most in a torture test. Can't imagine they stuck a plastic rod in a NATO classified metal gun if it was gonna ding the reliability.

[Oh Shoot]

Got zombies? Fire up the Mini 14 and leave the XD in your pants.

...

Well, actually, zombie gurus say a .22 will work fine, so I'm thinking a 10/22 as first line of defense.

Much cheaper per each undead to re-dead.

- OS

[Guest cheez]

My opinion fwiw is that if plastic guide rods were bad then Glock would not use them. I had over 10,000 rounds through my first Glock (17) and it was still shooting great when I traded it.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

Well, Ill throw my .02 cents in here.

I got my Glock 21 several years ago now, and shot well over a thousand rounds thru it, then decided to replace the spring and guide with a steel Wolff guide, and heavier spring.

I can ABSOLUTELY tell the difference, blindfolded. The Glock, with several more thousand rounds thru her now, recoils in a different, MUCH more "solid" feeling way, and is completely reliable. After getting my Beretta M9, I shot it a bit, and did the same to it. This pistol has been 100% reliable for a few thousand rounds now, nary a bobble. Got a slightly heavier Wolff spring, as well as a "D" spring, and as I said, she just goes BOOM every time the trigger is pulled.

In MY experiance...it is WELL worth the small cost to replace the plastic guides, and to also add a bit heavier spring. BUT, as with any advice, your experiance might be different. And for GOD'S sake...test hell out of it before using it to defend home & hearth.

Oh, on the Glock21...it even helped accuracy too, believe it or not.

[mikegideon]

Well, Ill throw my .02 cents in here.

I got my Glock 21 several years ago now, and shot well over a thousand rounds thru it, then decided to replace the spring and guide with a steel Wolff guide, and heavier spring.

I can ABSOLUTELY tell the difference, blindfolded. The Glock, with several more thousand rounds thru her now, recoils in a different, MUCH more "solid" feeling way, and is completely reliable. After getting my Beretta M9, I shot it a bit, and did the same to it. This pistol has been 100% reliable for a few thousand rounds now, nary a bobble. Got a slightly heavier Wolff spring, as well as a "D" spring, and as I said, she just goes BOOM every time the trigger is pulled.

In MY experiance...it is WELL worth the small cost to replace the plastic guides, and to also add a bit heavier spring. BUT, as with any advice, your experiance might be different. And for GOD'S sake...test hell out of it before using it to defend home & hearth.

Oh, on the Glock21...it even helped accuracy too, believe it or not.

Helped accuracy? Is that from a rest, or do you just shoot it better? Changing recoil springs is a lot more likely to change the feel of the gun than going to a metal guide rod. I'm not a fanboy for plastic... just sayin'

[Capbyrd]

Well, Ill throw my .02 cents in here.

I got my Glock 21 several years ago now, and shot well over a thousand rounds thru it, then decided to replace the spring and guide with a steel Wolff guide, and heavier spring.

I can ABSOLUTELY tell the difference, blindfolded. The Glock, with several more thousand rounds thru her now, recoils in a different, MUCH more "solid" feeling way, and is completely reliable. After getting my Beretta M9, I shot it a bit, and did the same to it. This pistol has been 100% reliable for a few thousand rounds now, nary a bobble. Got a slightly heavier Wolff spring, as well as a "D" spring, and as I said, she just goes BOOM every time the trigger is pulled.

In MY experiance...it is WELL worth the small cost to replace the plastic guides, and to also add a bit heavier spring. BUT, as with any advice, your experiance might be different. And for GOD'S sake...test hell out of it before using it to defend home & hearth.

Oh, on the Glock21...it even helped accuracy too, believe it or not.

Your 2 cents is an unfair comparison. Its like saying that you changed your oil and added a supercharger and now you have more power because of that oil change. If you want to make comparisons between the two, change ONLY the guide rod between tests.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks folks for the good ideas. Interesting.

Lester:______________

I suspect that that the magnetic material in the guide rod is a martensitic stainless steel (400 series). Martensitic stainless is harder than the 300 series steels; and most are magnetic, as i remember. That being said; my guess is that making a guide rod from 300 series stainless would be ok. The springs may cut the rod a little bit; but it will be pleny strong for that particular use. All it does is to keep the spring straight during recoil. There are those, im sure, who would advise against using a 300 series stainless because it is a bit softer and subject to galling; but i cant see that happening with a recoil guide rod. I would get out my tools and make me a custom guide rod if i wuz you and have a big time doing it!! Let us know how it turns out.

PS: Wouldnt bother with the aluminum guide rod job. Aluminum is too soft.

Didn't know that some stainless is non-magnetic. Interesting. Was looking at the compositions closer, and most stainless is high chrome content. Chrome being expensive, surprising stainless doesn't cost more than it does.

I retested the 92 stainless slide, barrel, guide rod, and all are definitely magnetic, but perhaps 'weakly magnetic' compared to iron.

=====

Looking at it the other way, wonder what would be a good plastic if one wanted to make a plastic guide rod? This looks like about the strongest plastic that Online Metals peddles--

Nylatron GS

Molybdenum disulphide (MoS2) filled nylon offering improved strength and rigidity. With a lower coefficient of linear thermal expansion than Nylon 101, Nylatron® GS parts maintain better fit and clearances, and have less tendency to seize as bearings.

Durometer Hardness, Shore D 85

Tensile Strength 12,500 psi

Tensile Elongation at break 25%

Shear Strength 10,500 psi

Continuous Service Temperature (Max in air) 220° F

Or maybe Teflon, which supposedly is good up to about 500° F, though it isn't as strong--

Teflon

PTFE, commonly called Teflon (polytetrafluoroethylene), provides unmatched chemical, electrical, mechanical, and thermal properties for multiple applications. Teflon is used for gasket and packaging materials in chemical processing equipment, as electrical insulation, as bearings, seals, and piston rings in mechanical applications, especially those requiring anti-stick characteristics, in addition to chemical, heat, corrosion, and impact resistance.

Teflon is weather resistant, flexible, non-stick, non-flammable, low dielectric constant, chemically inert, and good at low temperatures.

Durometer Hardness, Shore D 50

Tensile Strength 3,900 psi

Tensile Elongation at break 300%

Compressive Strength 3,500 psi

=====

Certainly not in the same strength ballpark as even 303 stainless--

Tensile Strength, psi 89,900

Yield Strength, psi 34,800

Elongation 50%

Rockwell Hardness B83

[Guest Straight Shooter]

All I can say, is that My Glock is a better gun after going to to heavier spring and steel guide.

As Ripley said....."Believe it.....or not".

Also, Capbyrd, I aint interested in "tests" or being "fair" or who here thinks Im wrong, right, or ape**** crazy.

ALL I care about my weapons firing every time I pull the trigger, and hitting what Im aiming at.

I accomplish this routinely and care not what others may think.

I swear....some of yall would argue with GOD.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Straight Shooter

[Guest 10mm4me]

I'd be careful switching to a metal rod in a gun designed for a plastic one. They do a number on the frame and barrel lugs. Best to stick to the original design when it comes to important parts.

Edited July 9, 2010 by 10mm4me

[Guest johnmattwill]

My last Sig P220R came with a plastic guide rod.... I was surprised, didn't expect it... I replaced it with a stainless ...... both seemed to work fine......