LEO Question...

[Guest stovepipe]

I'm having an interesting discussion with one of my reps about park carry. He said it was better to forbid legal carry than have a "grey area" for park police to have to discern whether a someone with carrying a firearm legally or not. I replied that this is something that LEO's face every day in most every city and state across the country, and that ours should have had the same training... But it made me wonder, how do you handle spotting someone with a concealed or openly carried firearm? - I'd assume you'd have to presume they have a permit and leave them alone, unless you have reason to suspect they breaking the law? - Just seeing someone carrying a firearm is not enough.

[Fallguy]

In TN you are breaking the law by carrying a firearm.

It is simply a defense to that law if you have HCP.

So right or wrong, I think in TN LEOs have enough reason to detain you and ask to see your permit based solely on seeing you with a handgun.

Now in the states where OC or other carry is allowed without a permit, it is different. There is a thread somewhere about a case in NM I think (Where OC without a permit is legal) where a judge said a openly carried weapon alone was not enough reason to detain someone. But as I said, that is not the law in TN.

[Guest stovepipe]

That makes sense... Seems like people who open carry would start concealing after being stopped a few times... I suppose there is Officer discretion involved as a matter of practice?

[kb4ns]

That makes sense... Seems like people who open carry would start concealing after being stopped a few times... I suppose there is Officer discretion involved as a matter of practice?

Yep. Personally, if I see someone with a CBOB in a $150 holster on a $80 gun belt, I'm far less likely to "speak with them" than if they have a high point riding in their waistband...

Now, if it's TGO David, I have nothing to worry about since he keeps his G19 next to his HCP badge.

Just kidding David. Please put the ban hammer down!!

[JayC]

In TN you are breaking the law by carrying a firearm.

It is simply a defense to that law if you have HCP.

So right or wrong, I think in TN LEOs have enough reason to detain you and ask to see your permit based solely on seeing you with a handgun.

Now in the states where OC or other carry is allowed without a permit, it is different. There is a thread somewhere about a case in NM I think (Where OC without a permit is legal) where a judge said a openly carried weapon alone was not enough reason to detain someone. But as I said, that is not the law in TN.

I have a dumb question then...

A license from the state is required to drive a car... It's a criminal violation to drive without a license. Yet police officers must have a valid reason to pull you over and request to see your license.

Yet police officers can stop and question you anytime they see you with a gun? Even though I'd argue that the % of people stopped without a valid drivers license is higher than the % of people stopped carrying a firearm in a holster not having a HCP.

I think that is some shaky legal ground, it would seem to me that the officer would need something more than you carrying a firearm to have reasonable articulated suspicion for a stop.

I realize that today that is not the case, I just wonder what the case law will look like in a few years time... Clearly seeing you perform an activity that is generally illegal without some reason to believe that the person being stopped is violating the law seems not to be the standard... not the other way around...

I'm also going to mention that I personally have been seen in public wearing a holstered firearm, had police see me wearing the firearm and not been stopped (or even asked for my HCP). As kb4ns said, how you're dressed, where you are, and what you look like probably play a much greater role than just wearing the firearm.

Edited June 28, 2010 by JayC

[TN-popo]

Based on the court case that Fallguy may be referring to (I'd have to look it up), my Dept has adopted the practice of not stopping someone who is simply OCing unless...

1. There is reasonable suspicion that other criminal activity is occuring (common "Terry Stop").

2. Responding to a citizen complaint regarding the OC.

Edited June 28, 2010 by TN-popo

[Armed Aviator]

Based on the court case that Fallguy may be referring to (I'd have to look it up), my Dept has adopted the policy of not stopping someone who is simply OCing unless...

1. There is reasonable suspicion that other criminal activity is occuring (common "Terry Stop").

2. Responding to a citizen complaint regarding the OC.

Did someone say Terry stop?????

[Fallguy]

I have a dumb question then...

A license from the state is required to drive a car... It's a criminal violation to drive without a license. Yet police officers must have a valid reason to pull you over and request to see your license.

Actually driving without a license is not a "criminal" violation I don't think. But anyway...there is not a law that says "You can not drive" but that having a driver's license that is a defense to that law. However there is a law that posession of a firearm is illegal.

Yet police officers can stop and question you anytime they see you with a gun?

IMO, yes

Even though I'd argue that the % of people stopped without a valid drivers license is higher than the % of people stopped carrying a firearm in a holster not having a HCP.

Perhaps..

I think that is some shaky legal ground, it would seem to me that the officer would need something more than you carrying a firearm to have reasonable articulated suspicion for a stop.

I don't think so, but again just my opinion.

I realize that today that is not the case, I just wonder what the case law will look like in a few years time... Clearly seeing you perform an activity that is generally illegal without some reason to believe that the person being stopped is violating the law seems not to be the standard... not the other way around...

I'm also going to mention that I personally have been seen in public wearing a holstered firearm, had police see me wearing the firearm and not been stopped (or even asked for my HCP). As kb4ns said, how you're dressed, where you are, and what you look like probably play a much greater role than just wearing the firearm.

Of course I'm not saying every LEO will engage every person they see armed....I'm just saying I think they can (legally) if they want to.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

Based on the court case that Fallguy may be referring to (I'd have to look it up), my Dept has adopted the practice of not stopping someone who is simply OCing unless...

1. There is reasonable suspicion that other criminal activity is occuring (common "Terry Stop").

2. Responding to a citizen complaint regarding the OC.

Here is the case I was talking about...

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/27259-nm-judge-tell-police-leave-ocers-alone.html

[TN-popo]

Here is the case I was talking about...

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/27259-nm-judge-tell-police-leave-ocers-alone.html

Yep.

[LagerHead]

Yep. Personally, if I see someone with a CBOB in a $150 holster on a $80 gun belt, I'm far less likely to "speak with them" than if they have a high point riding in their waistband...

Now, if it's TGO David, I have nothing to worry about since he keeps his G19 next to his HCP badge.

Just kidding David. Please put the ban hammer down!!

[Currently]

So the badge is on a lanyard around his neck?

[kb4ns]

So the badge is on a lanyard around his neck?

Sometimes (next to his Miami-Vice shoulder holster). Other times, it's merely clipped to his belt.

My stay here at TGO has been fun. I'll miss you guys...

[Guest FHTMcrt]

Where you goin'? Internet doesn't have borders...

JK