Non-carrying wife in the same car?

[Fallguy]

Are you telling me that a LEO can search a parked car, with a person sitting in it at a store, for no apparent reason? What happened to Probable Cause as a precursor to search and seizure? A woman sitting in the rider's seat talking on a cell phone to the grand babiy is a reason to bust in and serach?

And as of this year, a non-permit holder can be in a vehicle, with an unloaded long arm, but, with ammo in proximity, just not in a clip, chamber or magazine. Your bare hand does not constitute a clip, chamber or magazine, and by Law, you can keep the ammo close if loose and not inserted in a clip, magazine or in the chamber.

Of course I'm not saying a search of your car be done without PC.

I also agree as far as "acting" in self-defense the law sees your occupied car and your occupied house as the same thing.

I was addressing your statement that if a non-HCP holder can be charged for being in a car where a loaded firearm is, then could also be charged with being in a house where a loaded firearm was.

If possession via proximity were the sole criteria for prosecution , would not a loaded handgun in a home during the permit holder's absence be the same thing if a non-permit holder was present (i.e. wife, girlfriend, parent)?

I am saying since it is in the home having or not having a HCP is a non-issue.

As far as proximity being an issue...it is my understanding that no firearms can be in a house were a felon lives regardless of who actually owns the firearsm. If this is the case if the mere proximity of them in the home can get one charged with possession, it is not very hard to extend that to the smaller area of the interior of a car.

[JayC]

They can search your car without probable cause... on the basis of mere 'reasonable suspension' they can search the car.... We tossed probable cause out the window a long time ago when it comes to searches...

Of course I'm not saying a search of your car be done without PC.

I also agree as far as "acting" in self-defense the law sees your occupied car and your occupied house as the same thing.

I was addressing your statement that if a non-HCP holder can be charged for being in a car where a loaded firearm is, then could also be charged with being in a house where a loaded firearm was.

I am saying since it is in the home having or not having a HCP is a non-issue.

As far as proximity being an issue...it is my understanding that no firearms can be in a house were a felon lives regardless of who actually owns the firearsm. If this is the case if the mere proximity of them in the home can get one charged with possession, it is not very hard to extend that to the smaller area of the interior of a car.

[Fallguy]

They can search your car without probable cause... on the basis of mere 'reasonable suspension' they can search the car.... We tossed probable cause out the window a long time ago when it comes to searches...

Well I wasn't as detailed as I could have been...I was really trying to just make the other point.

[Worriedman]

They can search your car without probable cause... on the basis of mere 'reasonable suspicion' they can search the car.... We tossed probable cause out the window a long time ago when it comes to searches...

OK, give away Probably Cause, does your wife sitting in the car, with the doors locked and no visible weapon constitute "reasonable suspicion"? If so, going to be a lot of very busy LEO's and lawyers.

[Worriedman]

As far as proximity being an issue...it is my understanding that no firearms can be in a house were a felon lives regardless of who actually owns the firearsm. If this is the case if the mere proximity of them in the home can get one charged with possession, it is not very hard to extend that to the smaller area of the interior of a car.

Well, dragging a felon into the mix changes the nature of the conversation. However, I am talking about the average non-ax murdering, bank robbing, rapist type grandma, wife or girlfriend.

[Fallguy]

Well, dragging a felon into the mix changes the nature of the conversation. However, I am talking about the average non-ax murdering, bank robbing, rapist type grandma, wife or girlfriend.

I agree with you in that if the non-HCP wife/girlfriend/etc... is just sitting in the car, there is no real reason to expect that the car would be searched and the weapon found. But that doesn't change the fact of it is found whether they could be charged or not. I personally think they could, not to say they would though. It seemed that you said based on my reasoning then that a person could charged by being in the same house with a loaded weapon, if they didn't have a HCP. My point simply was because it is their residence, they do not need a HCP.

[Guest Gopher6]

It's been a long time since I was stopped for a traffic violation in Nashville but at that time a car search was routine for the "safety of the officer". Refusal to allow this search was inferred to mean a trip downtown and impoundment of the vehicle.

As far as a woman setting in a car in front of a liquior store, a lot depends on the demeanor and dress observed (I know, not supposed to happen, but get real).

[kb4ns]

Not trying to be argumentative, but, it appears that there is no difference in your house and your vehicle according to TN State Law with respect to where you are entitled to provide for self defense. There is no mention of the requirement of a permit anywhere in the Public Chapter.

Sorry, just now saw this thread again. As others have pointed out, I was referring to the possession of the firearm, not the use of it.

[JayC]

It's been a long time since I was stopped for a traffic violation in Nashville but at that time a car search was routine for the "safety of the officer". Refusal to allow this search was inferred to mean a trip downtown and impoundment of the vehicle.

As far as a woman setting in a car in front of a liquior store, a lot depends on the demeanor and dress observed (I know, not supposed to happen, but get real).

wow, no refusal to allow the search is not going to result in the car being impounded... I'm going to hope you just misunderstood the officer during this stop because what you're suggesting is a major violation if true.

As a general rule, if a police officers asks if they can search your car you are free to say no. And they then can't use that refusal as justification to further detain you or the vehicle. If they have PC or RAS to search the vehicle, they don't need your permission.

It's my understanding that sometimes officers will ask for permission before a search even when they do have PC/RAS because if the officer ends up being wrong about the PC/RAS the search becomes voluntary and the evidence is a lot easier to get admitted to court, where as if they make a mistake on PC/RAS and you refuse the search the evidence may very well be thrown out.

I'd suggest as a general rule to always refuse searches of your person, vehicle, and property... IANAL that is just my layman's opinion on the matter (but one supported but a great number of lawyers).

[Worriedman]

Sorry, just now saw this thread again. As others have pointed out, I was referring to the possession of the firearm, not the use of it.

I think this needs addressing in the Legislature, if a HCP holder is denied the ability to keep that weapon on their person due to an establishments "Right" to Post, it makes no sense that that holder could not leave their weapon in the vehicle whether a non-HCP holder was present or not, the vehicle being just like a residence for all other purposes. If one can defend against intrusion just like at one's home, it would only seem prudent to allow it to be a safe storage venue, elsewise we have State Law denying the HCP holder the ability to carry if he has a non-HCP holder as a passenger, without putting the holder at risk to violate the law.

So much for the "Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" rule.

[Fallguy]

It's been a long time since I was stopped for a traffic violation in Nashville but at that time a car search was routine for the "safety of the officer". Refusal to allow this search was inferred to mean a trip downtown and impoundment of the vehicle.

As far as a woman setting in a car in front of a liquior store, a lot depends on the demeanor and dress observed (I know, not supposed to happen, but get real).

There is a little thing called the 4th Amendment that prevents LEOs searching your car just for the fun of it.

That is not to say there are times they can lawfully search you care for reasons that may not be apparent to you, but they can't compel you to allow them to, just because they want to. However if they ask you voluntarily give consent...then it would be fine.

[busted knuckles]

I guess I could have put the gun in the trunk....

I just want to keep my carrying as legal as possible so I do not jeopordize my right/priviledge to carry. But I guess in this case SHE would be the one that would be issued a citation.

And thanks to you guys for the constructive conversation on this question.

[kb4ns]

...this needs addressing in the Legislature...it makes no sense...it would only seem prudent...

Welcome to the wonderful world of TCA, my friend!

[RinTN]

A situation like there was one of the reasons I encouraged my wife to get her permit. Now we don't have to worry about what someone could be charged with under these circumstances.

[Guest tngw1500se]

A situation like there was one of the reasons I encouraged my wife to get her permit. Now we don't have to worry about what someone could be charged with under these circumstances.

But what about girlfriends? That could get expensive and by the time the permit arrives she could have already been replaced!

[Guest Danariel]

It's been a long time since I was stopped for a traffic violation in Nashville but at that time a car search was routine for the "safety of the officer". Refusal to allow this search was inferred to mean a trip downtown and impoundment of the vehicle.

As far as a woman setting in a car in front of a liquior store, a lot depends on the demeanor and dress observed (I know, not supposed to happen, but get real).

I know this is old, and I apologize in advance for the necro-post, but I wanted to respond to Gopher6 here.

I was born and raised in Nashville. Up until the last couple of years, I pretty much got a ticket a year. NEVER has anyone even requested to search my car. Not sure how long it's been for you, but I got my license in '86.

[kb4ns]

I know this is old, and I apologize in advance for the necro-post, but I wanted to respond to Gopher6 here.

I was born and raised in Nashville. Up until the last couple of years, I pretty much got a ticket a year. NEVER has anyone even requested to search my car. Not sure how long it's been for you, but I got my license in '86.

I think it's going to be an officer-by-officer basis. Some of the guys I work with will ask to search cars 8 or 10 times a day. Other guys, like myself, won't ask for permission to search a car unless there's something obviously "up" with it. And usually by that point, I have PC to search the car and am going to do it anyway. I just want to guage your reaction to the request. I might search one car a month. Gopher6 might have run across one of the officers who makes a habit of asking to search cars. However, if the officer implied that refusing to allow a search would mean impoundment when the officer had no PC, I'd take great issue with such actions.

[Mike.357]

I gotta say, that if you know for 100% you have nothing in your car that can get you into trouble, never consent to a search.

And I guess that goes too for if they may find something, LOL. You really have nothing to lose by saying no.

and don't ever leave a handgun in a car with someone who has no permit.

[gregintenn]

Send the broad in the liquor store with your list and some money.

[Guest trigem]

Liquor stores are a favorite place for BG's, I would never go unarmed