Simplified gun law for Tennessee.

[Guest PapaB]

I'm in the process of writing a post for my blog and would like some opinions first. The subject will be a simplified gun law for TN and to that end I've come up with something I think would be effective. I'd like comments on whether I've missed something.

This isn't about the HCP verses no HCP discussion, or the cost, those are for other threads. This is just talking about the law that should control those that have an HCP.

Here's what I'm proposing:

The holder of a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit shall be allowed to bear arms at any time or place within the State of Tennessee with only the following exceptions;

1. On properties owned, leased or under the control of the Federal Government, Federal law shall prevail.

2. On properties owned, leased or under the control of private parties, those parties may prohibit the bearing of arms by posting a sign of not less than eight (8) inches wide and not less than ten (10) inches tall containing only the following wording. THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of the property as well as within the confines of a building located on the property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited.

3. No person, including those holding a current and valid HCP shall carry on or about the person while inside any room in which judicial proceedings are in progress The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any person who:

(a) Is in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer, or is employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard in the line of duty and pursuant to military regulations, or is in the actual discharge of official duties as a guard employed by a penal institution, or as a bailiff, marshal or other court officer who has responsibility for protecting persons or property or providing security; or

( Has been directed by a court to bring the firearm for purposes of providing evidence.

4. No person, including those holding a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit, may consume alcohol in public, or be under its influence, while in possession of weapons. Under the influence shall be defined as having a blood alcohol level of .08 percent or greater.

5. There can be no prohibitions against the holder of a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit from storing legal weapons within the confines of any motor vehicle which they own, lease or have legal control over.

This would allow carry in schools, churches, restaurants, State and local Government buildings and properties by HCP holders. I know it couldn't pass, unless people vote smarter, but that's not my point. Let me know if you see the need for any changes. The key to this is simplified. Did I miss anything?

Edited June 24, 2010 by PapaB
corrected formatting and added 2 words

[Guest uofmeet]

I like it....

[Volzfan]

4. No person, including those holding a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit, may consume alcohol or be under its influence while in possession of weapons. Under the influence shall be defined as having a blood alcohol level of .08 percent or greater.

If no person with a TN HCP can consume alcohol then how do they get any blood alcohol level?

[Daniel]

while in possession. My understanding is leaving a firearm somewhere and not taking possession of the firearm until under the stated BAC.

[Volzfan]

while in possession. My understanding is leaving a firearm somewhere and not taking possession of the firearm until under the stated BAC.

OK. I should have read it twice.

I would rather see a level lower than .08. I really don't see the point of making someone leave a gun in their car so that they can have a drink or two while eating dinner somewhere if he can go to the car and be back in possession of it again. Why not just allow someone to keep it with them but only allow a .04 BAC?

Personally, I don't drink so it doesn't matter to me either way.

[JAB]

Maybe I'm overlooking it but I don't see anything that addresses the 'penalty' for carrying past a properly posted sign. I'd like to see the law make the signs meaningless (as they are in other states) and require an establishment's owner/management to actually ask an individual to leave before there can be any legal ramifications but I doubt that would pass. Failing that, a specific size and wording requirement would be nice.

Likewise, I don't see anything explaining the legal ramifications of carrying where judicial proceedings are in progress. I think you are on the right track, though.

Edited June 23, 2010 by JAB

[Guest 270win]

A sign should not make my permit invalid. This is one of the dumbest parts of TN weapons law. I have no idea why this state is so facinated by these stupid signs...it goes right up there with the alcohol and guns hysteria....and of course the parks and schools silliness.

I have traveled in enough states that signs have the value of toilet paper. I have traveled to enough states that you can DRINK when carrying a gun as long as you are not DRUNK. Yes I've had a beer/wine with my lunch or dinner in such states while carrying a gun in a restaurant. I have even traveled to states and been legal carrying my gun on SCHOOL PROPERTY. Nothing happens...no worries.

[Guest friesepferd]

why make it illegal to carry past a place that has a sign at all? many states don't.

I respect private property rights. I respect the rights for a owner to post any damn sign he wants. I dont think those signs should hold any legal bearing other than if you get caught, and they ask you to leave, and you dont, then its tresspassing.

A 'no shirts no shoes no service' sign for example. If they see you dont have a shirt on, they can ask you to leave, but if you go into a place with that sign with no shirt or shoes on, you do not get arrested or fined, but only if you do not leave when asked.

so also should be 'no gun' signs. No other 'dont do this' sign is more strongly enforced than the no gun sign. its silly

[Fallguy]

If no person with a TN HCP can consume alcohol then how do they get any blood alcohol level?

LOL....good point. Would have to allow some consumption if going to attach a BAC

The current law 39-17-1321 only prevents consumption by a HCP holder "while within the confines of building open to the public that serves alcohol." Not in private places or out in the open.

Also the new law pretty much ended the debate as to whether consumption and under the influence are the same thing as there is an additional penalty for being under the influence above just consuming.

That being said...if .08 is good enough to drive a car...should be good enough to be armed.

[JayC]

Tennessee National Guard should be changed to "any member of the Tennessee Military Department" this covers national guard, Air guard, State guard, TEMA, General staff of the state and would cover the militia should it ever be called up.

[Guest PapaB]

Thanks for the great responses. The sign clause allows posting but there would be no criminal penalty, that's why none is listed. friesepferd, I think that addresses your concerns. The alcohol provisions are in 2 parts. The first is consuming which I think I'll change to "consuming in public" because this shouldn't affect what you do in private. The second is being under the influence. You can have a few drinks at home, then get your weapon and go out. Unfortunately there are a few that would do this and I think that's a bad idea. The .08 BAC simply matches the DUI level.

If something isn't addressed, it isn't banned. Some examples are parks, schools, State and local Government buildings and most parts of State and local Courthouses. If no legal ramifications are listed then none exist. Just trying to keep it simple.

[Guest friesepferd]

gotcha. ya, i guess thats fine, but a law without penalty is kinda silly.

stores are already allowed to post a sign if they want to, no need to spell it out. also they why specify what the sign should be if there is no penalty for not following the law.

[Fallguy]

Good point...if a sign is not going to carry the weight of law, no real need to specify what it says.

Also not going to look it up right now, but there is actually a code in TCA that specifies a penalty for a violation if there is not one specified for a certain law.

[JeffL]

Businesses aren't allowed to decide on their own whether or not to allow smoking. They're definitely not allowed to post "No blacks" or anything to that effect. Why are they able to say I can't enter with a firearm?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Because, Jeff, what you say makes sense. That's very complicated to have a politician

think like that.

[Volzfan]

I would like to see the law allow me, as an HCP holder, be able to go anywhere and into any business if those areas are open to the general public. I don't have a problem with courtrooms and some other state or federal buildings being off limits. I still don't understand why the Post Office is prohibited.

[JayC]

Businesses aren't allowed to decide on their own whether or not to allow smoking. They're definitely not allowed to post "No blacks" or anything to that effect. Why are they able to say I can't enter with a firearm?

Business may still choose to allow smoking... And frankly the restaurant smoking law is unconstitutional... and while nobody should encourage racism, parts of the Civil Rights act are clearly unconstitutional... private businesses should be allowed to discriminate however they choose.

Now, if they receive 1 penny from the government they should be required to not discriminate against any group (including gun owners and carriers)...

But private business should be allowed to do what they want and let the market handle it...

If people would just stop giving money to businesses which don't respect us as customers... this problem would be solved.

HCP holder represent nearly 10% of the adult (over 21) non-felon population in this state... what business can afford to tick off 10% of it's customer base?

As Patriots, we must respect every bodies rights, even when they discriminate against us.

[JayC]

I would like to see the law allow me, as an HCP holder, be able to go anywhere and into any business if those areas are open to the general public. I don't have a problem with courtrooms and some other state or federal buildings being off limits. I still don't understand why the Post Office is prohibited.

Other than secure areas of jails and prisons why should any state office building be off limits? We pay for those buildings, why should we not have just as much access as the next citizen to those buildings while carrying in a lawful manner? We need to hold the government to a higher standard than private businesses that is for sure.

[Volzfan]

Other than secure areas of jails and prisons why should any state office building be off limits? We pay for those buildings, why should we not have just as much access as the next citizen to those buildings while carrying in a lawful manner? We need to hold the government to a higher standard than private businesses that is for sure.

I only said that because TN is allowing more and more business to be done via the internet. I guess it was more of a personal statement because I don't remember the last time that I was in a state building. Probably when I applied for my HCP a few years ago. The state buildings were the reason that we got this crappy sign law now.

[JayC]

I only said that because TN is allowing more and more business to be done via the internet. I guess it was more of a personal statement because I don't remember the last time that I was in a state building. Probably when I applied for my HCP a few years ago. The state buildings were the reason that we got this crappy sign law now.

No the reasons we got the crappy signage law is because the legislature wouldn't just exempt all government buildings from posting. And while I haven't had to go into a state building this month (but I'll point out the capitol building is currently posted)... I often find myself having to go into city and county buildings.

[Guest HvyMtl]

I would put an additional option for the owner or one leasing/using the property to ban firearms EXCEPT Permit Holders. This way the person can be permit friendly. The wording would be a ban of firearms, as you have listed, with an additional large green circle with the words "Permit Allowed." Or something like. This way, a criminal can face the additional charge of carrying where prohibited, and the permit holder would be welcomed.

[Guest 1817ak47]

Imy theory is as more and more tn resisdent get permits, more will happen with the laws being brought in that will either give us or remove from us some rights

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I'm in the process of writing a post for my blog and would like some opinions first. The subject will be a simplified gun law for TN and to that end I've come up with something I think would be effective. I'd like comments on whether I've missed something.

This isn't about the HCP verses no HCP discussion, or the cost, those are for other threads. This is just talking about the law that should control those that have an HCP.

Here's what I'm proposing:

The holder of a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit shall be allowed to bear arms at any time or place within the State of Tennessee with only the following exceptions;

1. On properties owned, leased or under the control of the Federal Government, Federal law shall prevail.

2. On properties owned, leased or under the control of private parties, those parties may prohibit the bearing of arms by posting a sign of not less than eight (8) inches wide and not less than ten (10) inches tall containing only the following wording. THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of the property as well as within the confines of a building located on the property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited.

3. No person, including those holding a current and valid HCP shall carry on or about the person while inside any room in which judicial proceedings are in progress The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any person who:

(a) Is in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer, or is employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard in the line of duty and pursuant to military regulations, or is in the actual discharge of official duties as a guard employed by a penal institution, or as a bailiff, marshal or other court officer who has responsibility for protecting persons or property or providing security; or

( Has been directed by a court to bring the firearm for purposes of providing evidence.

4. No person, including those holding a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit, may consume alcohol in public, or be under its influence, while in possession of weapons. Under the influence shall be defined as having a blood alcohol level of .08 percent or greater.

5. There can be no prohibitions against the holder of a valid and current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit from storing legal weapons within the confines of any motor vehicle which they own, lease or have legal control over.

This would allow carry in schools, churches, restaurants, State and local Government buildings and properties by HCP holders. I know it couldn't pass, unless people vote smarter, but that's not my point. Let me know if you see the need for any changes. The key to this is simplified. Did I miss anything?

They are not known as "guards" anymore.. the correct term is "Correctional Officer"!!!!

[Guest PapaB]

FroggyOne2, thanks for pointing that out. I took the wording in subsections 'a' and 'b' by copying and pasting the current TN Code. I wanted to make sure it was in the correct legal format and wording. I'm not surprised that it's out of date.

[Mousegun]

So if there is a business with a brick and mortar store that does not allow firearms and I go to their web site to buy something, do I have to dis-arm?