Defense of a Third Party

[tnhawk]

If you don't KNOW the facts, it's better to use a phone than a weapon. If you guess that the facts are and you're wrong, you will probably pay a price.

[M1_Garand]

I only intend to use force to protect myself and immediate family. Unless I know 100% of the facts involved, I'm not putting myself or my family at risk for a stranger by drawing a gun. I'll dial 911 and be a good witness.

[McAllyn]

Yeah, my permit didn't come with a cape, so unless me or my wife are in danger of getting plugged, we're on the ground calling in the cavalry. Should the danger switch directions mid-event, that's a new situation calling for new tactics.

Mac

[vontar]

to quote a dirty harry movie, "When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross."

[Mike.357]

If a BG was fixing to execute somebody, I would probably take a shot if there was a reasonable chance of stopping it without getting me and mine killed.

How can you be sure who a bad guy is? I am not sure how to do this unless you see them execution style shoot someone else first.

it really is a dilemna.

Personally i picked #2.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

If you shoot an abusive husband, it is as likely as not that the abused wife would testify to the police that you shot the beloved hubby in cold blood with no provocation.

Playing music in bars, a few times I observed well-meaning good guys wade into the middle of domestic disputes. The interventions did not work out very well in the instances I witnessed.

Your post brought back a painful but relevant memory. I once years ago intervened in a bar fight in which a man was beating on his GF or wife. We had watched a bit while he hit her with open handed slaps, it was when he hit her with a closed fist in the face and thus knocked her into and over our table knocking over my darn beer in the process. It was then that I put a few punches and a kick to the aggressor and took him out of the fight. I then turned around to check on the lady and was met with what felt like a purse full of bricks on the side of my head. I did not go down but saw stars for a few minutes and hurt for days. I said then.....Never Again!

The same is even more true with a weapon involved, my HCP gives me the right to carry to defend me and mine but did not come with a responsibility to protect the rest of the free world. I can not say I would never get involved to help someone I did not know, but as others have said I am going to have to have a very very good idea of what is actually going on before I do.

As much as I would hate to be shot by an LEO or another good citizen, I would hate it just as much if I were to shoot such a person who was just doing their job or had simply turned the tables on a BG before I had got there.

While it is but a little plastic card the weight of the responsibility that it comes with is immeasurable, but none of that responsibility is the protection of the public.

"I thought" isnt going to help you none during a trial.

EDIT: Checking new edit function and wanted to add that I did not make a selection from the poll questions as I did not feel any one of them represented my thoughts.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Sgt. Joe
Just cuz

[Smith]

I think the poll over simplifies the scenario, but keeping that in mind ... I'm going #1 That is the assumption BG+gun is clear and the situation is clear, which would in that case automatically include #2 .... other wise maybe #3.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Smith

[Oh Shoot]

...

EDIT: Checking new edit function and wanted to add that I did not make a selection from the poll questions as I did not feel any one of them represented my thoughts.

OT Note: you could always edit your own post, not new, JFYI.

- OS

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

OT Note: you could always edit your own post, not new, JFYI.

- OS

Yea I did know that but was just making sure the new one worked the same.....it does....all good......Thankya

[Guest 1eyedwillie]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

I lean towards the above, but really there is no easy answer. If you happen to be there you get a split second to analyze the situation and decide what WILL be a life-changing situation for you. You better be sure and make the correct decision. Oh, and if you act with deadly force it may possibly cost you several thousand even if you are ultimately cleared of wrong-doing. Do you have it to spend? What will your significant other say about that? Will your creditors give you a break on paying your bills?

Are you close to cover? Can you issue a verbal challenge ("Hey' what's going on here?") What is the perp's reaction? Can you go to cover, take a cellphone picture, yell "I'm calling the cops". Again, what is the perp's reaction. If it is a true stranger third-party "victim", how do you know they won't start beating you to a pulp or pick up the perp's gun and start shooting at you for killing their wife/husband/boy or girlfriend, etc.

Assuming you are not LEO, you have no department to stand behind your actions legally. You are on your own. Are you sure enough of the situation in the second or two you get to decide to act or not?

Now, I am not saying I would never defend a third party. I am just saying if you have other options besides "popping caps" you may want to try them first.

Anyways, we can game this situation all day, but only if you are there can you have enough information (you hope) to act. But you better give it a lot of thought ahead of time. Discussions like this do serve a useful purpose for that.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Your post brought back a painful but relevant memory. I once years ago intervened in a bar fight in which a man was beating on his GF or wife. We had watched a bit while he hit her with open handed slaps, it was when he hit her with a closed fist in the face and thus knocked her into and over our table knocking over my darn beer in the process. It was then that I put a few punches and a kick to the aggressor and took him out of the fight. I then turned around to check on the lady and was met with what felt like a purse full of bricks on the side of my head. I did not go down but saw stars for a few minutes and hurt for days. I said then.....Never Again!

Back when cellphones were too expensive for ordinary folk, was playing piano at a not-especially-dangerous bar. It was unseasonably cold and me and girl singer were sitting in the van waiting for it to warm up before driving home.

A couple that had been getting along fine all night long, came out the front door and girlfriend/wife had apparently had at least one too many, and was pitching a tantrum. Police had the habit of cruising the parking lot at closing time looking for public intoxication, so the boyfriend/hubby had the duty to get the lady in the car and exit the parking lot ASAP, to keep her from going to jail.

She was acting up. He would gently tuck her into the car and fasten the safety belt, then walk around to the drivers side and get in. Then the gal would jump back out, verbally giving the fellow a piece of her mind. Then he would patiently get out, walk around and discuss with her and talk her back into the car. Then walk back to his side and get in. Then she would hop out again, raising heck.

This loop repeated many times, and thru it all the fellow exhibited the patience of Job. Finally the gal jumped out of the car one too many times, and he lost his temper and slapped her. I don't approve of such action, but the gal had been working on his last nerve for quite awhile.

At the very moment the fellow slapped the gal, another customer exited the bar, and the slap was all he saw. The Lone Ranger ran over there and started beating the snot out of the poor guy who was apparently just trying to keep his gal out of the drunk tank. But many other things may have been going on in this situation, dunno.

I didn't have a cellphone, and it didn't seem like a good idea to go help out and maybe lose a few teeth or go to jail trying to be a good samaritan. Couldn't think up much to do except wait for the police to come by and sort out the mess.