Defense of a Third Party

[D3vo]

What level of threat to a third party would it take for you to pull your weapon in defense of a third party? Does the presence of loved ones factor into your decision making?

Edited June 16, 2010 by D3vo

[Guest don_m]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

[Volzfan]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

Agree. All good points.

[daddyo]

If you're going to defend someone you don't know, you better be damned sure that it's justified.

[D3vo]

Sounds like the subject matter is to complicated for a poll, but I like where the discussion is going.

[G27]

Me and mine.

[mikegideon]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

I voted number two, but there could be exceptions. If a BG was fixing to execute somebody, I would probably take a shot if there was a reasonable chance of stopping it without getting me and mine killed.

[monkeylizard]

+1

[nightrunner]

only time I would interfere is if the one being attacked was either family member or friend or a good acquaitance(sp?)

[Proscene]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

DITTO !

[JAB]

Me and mine.

I have an HCP so that I can be legally equipped to defend myself and loved ones if the need arises. The purpose of that is to increase the chance that me and mine can go home at the end of the day and continue to live our lives as happily as possible. Getting involved in a gunfight in defense of a stranger - and risking getting injured or killed in said stranger's defense - runs counter to that purpose. Shooting someone in defense of said stranger - and risking legal issues and/or a civil case - on that stranger's behalf also runs counter to that purpose. Therefore, for the most part, I ain't doing it.

Maybe if the intended victim were a child and the situation made it obvious that this wasn't just a parent disciplining said child (as in the aggressor had a knife, firearm or other weapon poised to use on the child) I would make an exception. Otherwise, where adults are concerned, if the incident is taking place somewhere that I can carry my firearm then I figure other adults (with a few exceptions, such as felons, etc.) have the same option of obtaining an HCP and going armed as I have. If they aren't willing to take on the responsibilities and potential risks of doing so in order to be prepared to protect their own lives then I sure ain't taking on the responsibilities and risks of protecting their lives for them.

Edited June 16, 2010 by JAB

[Guest uofmeet]

only time I would interfere is if the one being attacked was either family member or friend or a good acquaitance(sp?)

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

ditto on both.

[molonlabetn]

Unless I am aware of who the victim is, and who the badguy is, I am distancing myself from a situation (for instance, I don't want to intercede in a situation and unknowingly draw on or shoot an undercover cop or another goodguy based on an incorrect assumption about a situation).

If me or my loved ones are involved, there is no question about using every means available to prevent us from being harmed.

[daddyo]

If they aren't willing to take on the responsibilities and potential risks of doing so in order to be prepared to protect their own lives then I sure ain't taking on the responsibilities and risks of protecting their lives for them.

Truer words have never been spoken. Whenever I encounter a liberal gun hater who wants to argue with me about carrying, I always promise them that I will NEVER insult them by using my firearm to protect them if the need ever arose.

[vontar]

Me and mine. or be a good wittness and call 911.

I would have a good chance at having most of the facts when it comes to me and mine but with strangers what appears to be one things very well may turn out to be something else. That is where being a good wittness and calling 911 comes in.

[Red Haired Girl]

I agree with all of you and you have very valid reasoning. I would also prefer to opt to be a good witness and call 911. That being said, if I were to encounter someone kicking or beating the living crap out of a person, male, female, adult or child, I will find it very difficult to stand idly by while they are defenseless and having the life beaten out of them. My first action will be to call 911, but after that call is made, if the aggressor did not stop the attack - I would.

[Fallguy]

I agree with all of you and you have very valid reasoning. I would also prefer to opt to be a good witness and call 911. That being said, if I were to encounter someone kicking or beating the living crap out of a person, male, female, adult or child, I will find it very difficult to stand idly by while they are defenseless and having the life beaten out of them. My first action will be to call 911, but after that call is made, if the aggressor did not stop the attack - I would.

Good point....

I too am one that I want to know the situation before I was to use deadly force.

However if the agressor is a undercover LEO or otherwise normally good guy, they should not be beating the person to the point of near death.

[JAB]

That being said, if I were to encounter someone kicking or beating the living crap out of a person, male, female, adult or child, I will find it very difficult to stand idly by while they are defenseless and having the life beaten out of them. My first action will be to call 911, but after that call is made, if the aggressor did not stop the attack - I would.

This might - MIGHT - be an occasion where I would decide to bring the can of pepper spray that I also often carry into play, especially if the attacker appeared to be unarmed. To me, that would be a lot different than shooting someone on a stranger's behalf. I'd still have to think pretty hard about it, though, if I didn't know the situation. How do I know the guy getting the crap kicked out of him didn't jump the apparent 'attacker' and is simply getting his ass kicked for his troubles? I would imagine that, in some situations, even using pepper spray could end up in an assault charge which, again, would not be in the best interests of me and mine.

[midtennchip]

This is an EXTREMELY complicated issue. Not necessarily from a legal standpoint, but from a factual standpoint. For example, if I'm in church and hear a gun go off or see a BG with a gun, I'm pulling my gun. There's almost no reason that would prevent me from protecting myself, "mine," and the church members. But, in that case, I can likely tell within a half-second or so whether or not the BG belongs there. Not much chance of a problem using deadly force.

However, let's say I am at a different venue (make one up, but I'm thinking a big wedding, banquet, etc.) where I don't know everyone. I will be much less likely to pull my gun unless I know the victim (or potential victim). Just too much risk.

To narrow the discussion, I think if you know or recognize EITHER the BG or the potential victim, you have something to go on. However, you still might be shooting at an undercover LEO. If you don't know or recognize either, call 911 and keep you gun concealed.

[Guest H0TSH0T]

if you have to shoot a person in defense of another person unknown, shoot video with your cell phone if you can, or after you dialed 911, and are safe, if you are not safe be ready to defend your own self till you are safe and get your tail to safety.

[wstrnrdr]

too many variables, scenarios, circumstances for definitive mindset to step up.

Having spent a number of years in UC, mostly narcotics. We generally worked in pairs. Partner/BU was often not in plain sight.

If one stepped up and made decision to intervene and sit involved UC LEO, there would be a very real chance that he would be on the recieving end as he would

be percieved as another BG attempting to take out the UC.

I would only step up if someone known, family, or could definitevly know who was who.

Dial 911 and protect your own at all costs

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you shoot an abusive husband, it is as likely as not that the abused wife would testify to the police that you shot the beloved hubby in cold blood with no provocation.

Playing music in bars, a few times I observed well-meaning good guys wade into the middle of domestic disputes. The interventions did not work out very well in the instances I witnessed.

[Links2k]

I don't see what I'd consider the most reasonable answer on your list. The mere presence of a BG with a gun or in "attack" mode doesn't make the grade. The law in most states basically allows you to defend an innocent third party to the the extent that they would be justified in defending themselves. Defending a stranger is a dicey situation. Is the "BG" really an undercover cop? Is the "kidnapper" really the kid's dad taking his cranky kid home for her nap? Is either party really "innocent?" Unless there's no other reasonable explanation, be a good witness and dial 911.

well said...the other options make you look a cowboy or a wannabe super hero

[Guest friesepferd]

ya, certainly too complicated to answer in that vague of a poll.

As said before, you HAVE to know whats going on. See someone pointing a gun at someone? Maybe he had just gotten robbed and was a HCP holder for example.

It all depends on the situation and I can't give an all incompasing answer here. One example I can give though is a bad guy robbing a store that I am in. If he is pointing a gun at people, and just hasnt pointed it at me yet.. I am still in fear of my life, even if he hasnt seen me yet. Most likely I am not going to go getting myself into some other fight though. Really just depends on the situation

[vontar]

even in that example "Maybe he had just gotten robbed and was a HCP holder for example. "

Use of deadly force in TN is not justification to protect property, only life and lmb.

http://www.lesjones.com/2003/09/23/tennessee-handgun-carry-permits-part-i/

You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.

Deadly force and criminal law

• You can use deadly force to prevent death or serious injury to yourself or a third party. Beware of blundering into a scene and making a split-second decision as to who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy. You could shoot the guy with the gun, only to find out he’s an undercover cop, or another armed citizen like yourself.