Problems with those that carry in a restaurant?

[JReedEsq]

Attacking my opinion and attempting to overtly insult me while trying to be clever doesn't make for a very interesting discussion IMO so I'd prefer to end it.

Guys getting bent out of shape over the fact that I'm somehow insulting them by disagreeing with them should really chill out.

I hate to see the forum errode into senseless insults. Even though I don't agree with you, I nearly chimed in defense of your right to disagree. Then it ocurred to me that you initiated the insults in the OP.

Sorry CK but you got what you deserved. It's like you threw dirt at the whole board and then complained when you got sand in your eyes in return.

[Guest bkelm18]

CK obviously posts these things to get attention. I'm pretty sure he's not an idiot. He knows his frankly socialistic and left wing opinions are not popular here. He's just baiting for reactions.

[tnhawk]

Well, that's a separate and unrelated argument as far as I'm concerned.

As a former bar/restaurant investor/owner, allowing guns alongside alcohol in establishments located in a state where a large portion of the residents think it's just fine to spend thousands on lift-kits and wheels for trucks they'll never take off-road in leu of things like higher education, or where seeing 20k+ bass boats parked right next to doublewides in leu of moving their families to better homes is common-place, I'd tend to lien towards Randy's conclusion too I guess... seeing as so many of the firearms owners who are so into the debate spend far more on their toy collection than on actual practice-ammo , I'm kind of fine with it actually, hate to get hit by a stray bullet while sipping on a cold Stella after a couple good ol' boys get into it after arguing over whether Hank Jr. is better than Jerry Reed or not...

Having a good time and enjoying some good food isn't dependent on whether I'm heeled or not to me. To each his own...

Set my beer can on your head and watch this!

[R1100R]

CK obviously posts these things to get attention. I'm pretty sure he's not an idiot. He knows his frankly socialistic and left wing opinions are not popular here. He's just baiting for reactions.

+1

After 8 pages I feel the need for a lift kit and a double wide. I agree the owner of a establishment has the right to do what he wants. It is my right to do what I want.

I have also been in the dining, bar,night club and strip club business in

Atlanta. All in working class areas. They are the best people around. I have seen a few shootings late night. I would allow carry in the businesses that served families.

CK1, I love the way you lump the majority of us together. As far as insults read your OP.

I didn't know Gallatin was such a upscale area.

Edited June 16, 2010 by R1100R

[Volzfan]

The thing that I don't understand is where is the public outrage about drinking and driving. It's like we just assume that X number of innocent people are going to die each year from people who go to bars and get smashed and then get behind the wheel of their car. Personally I am much more concerned about those people. Cars and alcohol don't mix. I don't remember seeing that in the Tennessean lately.

In 2008 in TN there were 1035 traffic deaths. Of that number 327 were alcohol related. That is 32% of the total traffic deaths.

Drunk Driving Accident Statistics: Alcohol-Related Car Crash Deaths

This doesn't include the number of innocent people that have permanent disabilities from these wrecks.

I would bet that innocent people that are killed by crazed HCP holders will be vastly less than these numbers. I would be surprised if there is even one.

I trust TN HCP holders more than anyone who drinks and drives. Sorry if you can't but that your right to have a wrong opinion!

[tntnixon]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume, that since CK was a restaurant/bar owner, he served people more than 2 drinks in an hour (our liver conjugates one drink an hour and 2 drinks will almost certainly put you over the 0.08 threshold) and sent them on there merry way to get behind a wheel without even thinking about it. That is far more dangerous than having a HCP holder, who is not drinking, be in his establishment and is actually illegal (yes, a restaurant or bar can be held liable for over serving). But hey, you made more money in the long run, right?

And for all the people who say that a big man can drink more than a little woman without being considered drunk, you're wrong. The percentage of alcohol in the bloodstream has nothing to do with your size or your perception of a buzz. It's purely the uptake of the alcohol.

[Guest FiddleDog]

Me...I'd just rather know that my weapon is secure, and not possibly stolen from my car, by the time I get back to it. What a lot of bar/restaurant owners don't seem to mind is that fact that most everyone in the place has something on his or her possession that can and does kill people on a daily basis that is too often directly related to the alcohol that they consume in that establishment...their car keys.

If I'm carrying, I don't drink. I wouldn't do it even if it weren't illegal. Just like if I'm driving, I don't drink. Of course I'm blessed with an absurdly low alcohol tolerance.

I had an experience a the Hustler Store the other day (my wife was hosting a lingerie party for a friend of hers and wanted to pick up a "pin the macho on the man" game). While it's not an alcohol serving establishment, it is most likely run by a more liberal-minded crew, and I figured that they would have a problem with someone carrying a gun into the store. I wasn't planning on going anywhere that I thought might have a problem, so I didn't dress well enough to completely conceal my firearm. Rather than stand outside, I went in and asked to speak to the manager. I explained that I was an HCP holder and was concerned with leaving my firearm in the car, but would respect her wishes if it weren't welcome in her store, and would wait outside. Her response was "hell. I'd rather you have it (the gun) than give some bum a chance to steal it from your car. At least with your permit, I know you're not a felon."

The point is, I'll try to respect the wishes of the proprietor/manager of a business as it is, for all intents and purposes, their place. A lot of people who are opposed to this law, are opposed because deep down, they think that some people ought not carry guns. I am happy for the law because I agree with them. Some people ought not have guns: criminals.

CK1, I get where you're coming from. I see people who make decisions that I deem poorly thought out on a daily basis. And I think to myself: "there oughtta be a law against that..." But then I realize, all I can really do is try to make the best decisions for myself and my family. I'm sure that you weren't trying to insinuate that anyone here was a "bubba" because, let's face it, the kind of folks that I think you're talkng about are folks that probably don't care one way or another about any laws, they'll do what they want, period. But keep in mind...some of us in this great state wear shoes, and have all of our teeth...I'd say most of us. Give us HCP holders, and fellow Tennesseans, a little credit to conduct ourselves with responsibility.

Edited June 16, 2010 by FiddleDog

[Guest db99wj]

You guys do realize that I never even meant to start a thread like this, it was moved here and was maybe a decent topic to talk about breifly earlier today when the mood was lighter, but at this point the discussion is pointless... I have my opinion, obviously it's not a popular one, that's great, to each his own. Attacking my opinion and attempting to overtly insult me while trying to be clever doesn't make for a very interesting discussion IMO so I'd prefer to end it.

Not everyone sees things the same way and there's no such thing as Santa Claus either, oh well, guess we'll all just have to get over it.

Guys getting bent out of shape over the fact that I'm somehow insulting them by disagreeing with them should really chill out.

It's hard to put those worms back into that can.

[willis68]

You guys do realize that I never even meant to start a thread like this, it was moved here and was maybe a decent topic to talk about breifly earlier today when the mood was lighter, but at this point the discussion is pointless... I have my opinion, obviously it's not a popular one, that's great, to each his own. Attacking my opinion and attempting to overtly insult me while trying to be clever doesn't make for a very interesting discussion IMO so I'd prefer to end it.

Not everyone sees things the same way and there's no such thing as Santa Claus either, oh well, guess we'll all just have to get over it.

Guys getting bent out of shape over the fact that I'm somehow insulting them by disagreeing with them should really chill out.

CK1,

I am not sure what your deal is, it just seems to me that you get off on stirring people up on this forum. You always seem to open up a can of worms and then try to close it, I honestly wonder what your agenda is sometimes on this forum

[Guest CK1]

CK1,

I am not sure what your deal is, it just seems to me that you get off on stirring people up on this forum. You always seem to open up a can of worms and then try to close it, I honestly wonder what your agenda is sometimes on this forum

Really? Having an opinion that's different than others is stirring the pot? So not being in lock-step with the herd means I have an agenda? That's all BS.

This thread was moved over by a mod who disagreed with my point of view... and since, rather than having a discussion, I've been getting bashed over and over without a whole lot being added (and I'm pretty sure he knew It'd go that way)... I never even wanted to get into this as I knew exactly how it'd go.

I purposely try to avoid the political threads on TGO these days, and have done so for a while, as it's always proven to be uninspiring and hasn't made for very interesting discussions.

I honestly don't care if a single person on here agrees with any of my points of view or not, they're my opinions alone like everyone is entitled to, and different strokes for different folks. What's strange is there is so little variance in the opinions that are allowed to be put forth on here without receiving static.

Besides, commenting on how you perceive my identity as a poster is relevant? What's YOUR deal? IMO, You come off as some goofball who gets off on spending a ton of money on expensive 1911's but who really doesn't know jack about actually shooting them... why don't you consider that for a while instead.

I must've missed it that TGO is a place where if you don't agree with the majority you're unwelcome, signed up a while ago though, maybe things have since changed.

Time to take a break from this forum, the norm has become a transfer of very little insight in the discussions without it turning into pure mob-mentality banter, and a limited amount of topics that are even related to shooting anyhow.

Edited June 16, 2010 by CK1

[Fallguy]

Yes, I disagree with your opinion, which I hope hasn't bent you out of shape.

But I moved your post and created a new thread so as the discussion that is occruing would not be done in the thread where your post was first made and cause a buch of off-topic post in that thread.

I didn't create the post or your opinoin, I just moved it out of one thread and into it's own.

[strickj]

This thread was moved over by a mod who disagreed with my point of view... and since, rather than having a discussion, I've been getting bashed over and over without a whole lot being added

Having your post moved into it's own thread has nothing to do with it.

You would have gotten the same response if your post was kept in the original thread.

I never even wanted to get into this as I knew exactly how it'd go.

Then maybe you shouldn't have made the post to begin with?

(and I'm pretty sure he knew It'd go that way)...

No one other then you are responsible for the things you say, or post.

[LagerHead]

I also don't see how one can not trust another based on how money is spent.

Maybe I wanna spend my money on my car instead of my home. So ****ing what! That does not make me unsafe with a firearm.

I challenge you, CK, to find one article where spending habits are related to gun safety\accidents.

And it's not like this is phenomena isolated specifically to TN, or the South. There are people with mixed up priorities (if they're neglecting children, etc in favor of a truck, for example) everywhere.

Guess my point is, I'm all for legal carry in restaurants/bars, but think it comes down to a question of peoples right to not have to rely on other's judgment whether they like it or not...

Quick example: If I or anyone else is out with their family, happen to be carrying and can sit down to dinner at a place without taking it off or leaving it in the car, OCing probably is just as good as any "shoot-me-first vest" anyhow... but it's out there and the waitress and maybe the family next to you/me can be reasonbly sure she doesn't serve us 14 tequila shots...

Now if I was at the Flying Saucer having some drinks with friends and I saw a weirdo looking dude with a Draco hanging at the end of the bar at 12:30am I'd also want to be able to notice that and maybe find the valet...

It's tricky.

Again, not isolated to restaurants. This could happen anywhere. A missed shot is a missed shot, regardless of locale.

Get over that redneck/yankee s**t, I already apologized if I hurt anyone's feelings, and was just kidding, no harm meant...

I'm not worried about the proximity of alcohol and firearms, I'm worried about drunken' idiots and their pension to do stupid things being in close proximity to firearms... some a-hole who's been drinking maybe starting some s**t with someone who hasn't been drinking but who's carrying, maybe throws a punch, maybe breaks a bottle...

Look, let it pass, I don't care either way honestly, won't affect me one bit. That is, until something happens and the first innocent bystander gets shot, somebody's daughter, maybe somebody's mom out having a good time, and suddenly the carry rights we already do have are under all out attack... that'll be great.

Brady, VPC, and FSA and their ilk have been making that EXACT argument for years in opposition to legal carry. Not just in restaurants, but in stores, businesses, parking lots - hell, everywhere. But despite the surge in firearm sales and carry permits nationwide, this has just not come to pass.

I agree with CK, I was at a restaurant this past weekend and I don't drink but for some reason I'm guessing because I live in a double-wide and was carrying a gun concealed, I had to fight of the urge all night to get drunk and start shooting the place up. Thank god my wife who has graduated from college was there to talk me out of doing it....

She has to be from Kalifornia then. If she was from Tennessee she would have been drunk, in Daisy Dukes and a halter top, on top of the bar yelling and whistling through the gap where her two front teeth are missing.

CK, you didn't hurt my feelings at all, but you're thinking like an anti. Fallguy said it best. What is the difference between carrying concealed in a crowded Walmart, and carrying concealed in a restaurant? The decision on how to defend yourself in crowded places has been discussed many times. What difference does it make if you're surrounded by people that are drinking. You are in control of the gun.

The instances of "friendly fire" by permit holders is so low, it barely deserves mentioning. Granted, one is too many - and I sincerely believe that - but this is a scenario that just barely ever happens.

[Guest db99wj]

It's not the herd, it is just the overall opinion of the forum. If you disagree with the majority, which is fine and dandy, don't expect others to hold back when they disagree with your opinion. If you didn't want to "get into this" in the first place, you shouldn't have mentioned it in the other thread about where to have a party.

You make a statement on one of the hottest most discussed issues on this forum in the last 2+ years, that goes against what 99.99% of the members believe, what do you expect to happen?

Kind of like being anti-gun and coming to a pro gun forum and saying guns should be illegal. Not going to get a lot of support.

Edited June 16, 2010 by db99wj

[molonlabetn]

Look, my point is, I wouldn't trust half the guys who shot this past weekends IDPA match to take a shot inside an even semi-crowded restaurant and not hit some bystander by accident, and these are of the small cross-section of the CCing population who are actually putting forth the effort to gain some experience shooting simulated real-world related scenarios and are usually already better than most gunowners/CCers if only just by showing up...

If you had to qualify or pass a special level of competence in order to earn the right to carry in a bar/restaurant then I'd be all for it, but since the overwhelming majority of gunowners out there can't hit the side of a barn yet can still easily get their HCP, I'm very weary of it... not worried about the BG, worried about someone's daughter/son/mother/etc behind them...

Sorry for going off-topic, just putting it out there that the gap between the level of responsibility required and what's commonplace is vast and people do stupid s**t all the time, IMO at some point you've got to have some faith in the laws in place and the LEO's to handle their business, fists aren't posted and...

I'd add that I'd see the issue differently if they changed it to require you to OC in a restaurant/bar, for me that would be a fair compromise.

Where should the line be drawn then? The State of TN has already stated that they don't trust anyone in public with a firearm, unless they have a hunting or carry permit...

If we're going to have carry permits, and them mean anything at all, perhaps the solution would be to make the qualification actually challenging, instead of picking and choosing where is and is not appropriate to excercise what we do have, based simply on opinion? For that matter, why not make any type of permit/license more challenging to get... drivers licenses, for instance?

That certainly makes more sense than restricting all drivers from being able to operate a motor vehicle near a school, to or from an establishment which serves alcohol, or anywhere there was a semi-crowded pedestrians' crosswalk or sidewalk which most drivers couldn't be trusted not to hit if reacting to an emergency.

Passing regulatory laws and restrictions and requiring state certifications doesn't protect people... it never has and never will.

Individual action based on the common sense of an educated mind, personal responsibility with consideration towards others, and practiced skill to effectively do what is right are all we have to protect ourselves... Effective punishment for those who lack those qualities, and act upon evil is all we have to protect each other. The problem is that our society, on the most part, has lost both of those qualities... and again, no amount of certification or regulation can replace them.

[BrasilNuts]

...

Edited June 16, 2010 by BrasilNuts

[JReedEsq]

Really? Having an opinion that's different than others is stirring the pot? So not being in lock-step with the herd means I have an agenda? That's all BS.

I agree with you that I'd like to see more tolerance for disagreement. It is really hard to be sympathetic, however, to someone who hurls lots of insults, and then complains when things aren't civil.

[BrasilNuts]

Mind if I translate?

Really? Having an opinion that's different than others is stirring the pot? So not being in lock-step with the herd means I have an agenda? That's all BS.

I can’t say whatever I want and not get called on it? No matter, you’re all to stupid to form your own opinions anyway.

This thread was moved over by a mod who disagreed with my point of view... and since, rather than having a discussion, I've been getting bashed over and over without a whole lot being added (and I'm pretty sure he knew It'd go that way)... I never even wanted to get into this as I knew exactly how it'd go.

I am not responsible for any of my actions and I am being persecuted for my beliefs. See! See! It’s all his fault.

I purposely try to avoid the political threads on TGO these days, and have done so for a while, as it's always proven to be uninspiring and hasn't made for very interesting discussions.

Yawn.... you bore me.

I honestly don't care if a single person on here agrees with any of my points of view or not, they're my opinions alone like everyone is entitled to, and different strokes for different folks. What's strange is there is so little variance in the opinions that are allowed to be put forth on here without receiving static.

You couldn’t even understand my opinion if you wanted to.

Fascists!!!

Besides, commenting on how you perceive my identity as a poster is relevant? What's YOUR deal? IMO, You come off as some goofball who gets off on spending a ton of money on expensive 1911's but who really doesn't know jack about actually shooting them... why don't you consider that for a while instead.

I am going to attack you on a completely unrelated topic to try and change focus.

I must've missed it that TGO is a place where if you don't agree with the majority you're unwelcome, signed up a while ago though, maybe things have since changed.

I am going to try and make you feel guilty now.

Fascists!!!

Oh, have I said racists yet?

Racists!!!

Time to take a break from this forum, the norm has become a transfer of very little insight in the discussions without it turning into pure mob-mentality banter, and a limited amount of topics that are even related to shooting anyhow.

In summary:

I’m going to take my ball and go home.

Your opinions are below me.

Fascists!!!

Racists!!!

[DavidM]

Mind if I translate?

In summary:

I’m going to take my ball and go home.

Your opinions are below me.

Fascists!!!

Racists!!!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!

[daddyo]

Mind if I translate?

I can’t say whatever I want and not get called on it? No matter, you’re all to stupid to form your own opinions anyway.

I am not responsible for any of my actions and I am being persecuted for my beliefs. See! See! It’s all his fault.

Yawn.... you bore me.

You couldn’t even understand my opinion if you wanted to.

Fascists!!!

I am going to attack you on a completely unrelated topic to try and change focus.

I am going to try and make you feel guilty now.

Fascists!!!

Oh, have I said racists yet?

Racists!!!

In summary:

I’m going to take my ball and go home.

Your opinions are below me.

Fascists!!!

Racists!!!

I laughed so hard at this I cried. That was great!

[willis68]

Really? Having an opinion that's different than others is stirring the pot? So not being in lock-step with the herd means I have an agenda? That's all BS.

This thread was moved over by a mod who disagreed with my point of view... and since, rather than having a discussion, I've been getting bashed over and over without a whole lot being added (and I'm pretty sure he knew It'd go that way)... I never even wanted to get into this as I knew exactly how it'd go.

I purposely try to avoid the political threads on TGO these days, and have done so for a while, as it's always proven to be uninspiring and hasn't made for very interesting discussions.

I honestly don't care if a single person on here agrees with any of my points of view or not, they're my opinions alone like everyone is entitled to, and different strokes for different folks. What's strange is there is so little variance in the opinions that are allowed to be put forth on here without receiving static.

Besides, commenting on how you perceive my identity as a poster is relevant? What's YOUR deal? IMO, You come off as some goofball who gets off on spending a ton of money on expensive 1911's but who really doesn't know jack about actually shooting them... why don't you consider that for a while instead.

I must've missed it that TGO is a place where if you don't agree with the majority you're unwelcome, signed up a while ago though, maybe things have since changed.

Time to take a break from this forum, the norm has become a transfer of very little insight in the discussions without it turning into pure mob-mentality banter, and a limited amount of topics that are even related to shooting anyhow.

WOW, you read me like a book, yes I have spent probably more than you make in a year on 1911's just to hang them on the wall to look at them when ever I want :D that is the ticket, if only I could be a professional world renowned shooter like yourself then I guess I would have a right to post on this board :D

Get over yourself man, you really do not have a clue

[enfield]

Never mind - y'all don't need another dog in this fight.

Edited June 16, 2010 by enfield

[LagerHead]

Never mind - y'all don't need another dog in this fight.

Sure we do.

What surprises me is he is making blatantly anti-gun comments on a blatantly pro-gun board and is shocked when there's a backlash!

[Red Haired Girl]

Mind if I translate?

I can’t say whatever I want and not get called on it? No matter, you’re all to stupid to form your own opinions anyway.

I am not responsible for any of my actions and I am being persecuted for my beliefs. See! See! It’s all his fault.

Yawn.... you bore me.

You couldn’t even understand my opinion if you wanted to.

Fascists!!!

I am going to attack you on a completely unrelated topic to try and change focus.

I am going to try and make you feel guilty now.

Fascists!!!

Oh, have I said racists yet?

Racists!!!

In summary:

I’m going to take my ball and go home.

Your opinions are below me.

Fascists!!!

Racists!!!

We have a Winner!! Thank you BrasilNuts.

[Guest Jamie]

Never mind - y'all don't need another dog in this fight.

Yeah, that's kind'a where I'm at with it... :-\

J.