Problems with those that carry in a restaurant?

[Guest Boogieman]

The way I see it is that we all have the choice as to which establishments we patronize. I am for witholding my money from someone who cannot seem to recognize my right to carry. The antis also have the right to withold their money from establishments that do allow carry. If someone is skeered because a "gun nut" is sitting three tables down then they can go somewhere else. I'll be doing business where my rights are not impeded by "someone elses judgement".

[mikegideon]

I agree with CK, I was at a restaurant this past weekend and I don't drink but for some reason I'm guessing because I live in a double-wide and was carrying a gun concealed, I had to fight of the urge all night to get drunk and start shooting the place up. Thank god my wife who has graduated from college was there to talk me out of doing it....

Faron Young used to get drunk and shoot the place up, but he was pretty safe about it. Never actually shot anybody... just broke a few things.

[Guest CK1]

CK1 -

It seems to me that you trust yourself to do the right thing (not drink and no gunfights), but that doesn't extend to others. I can understand that.

Good topic!

That's it. Guess this is were the saying "opinions are like a**holes..." comes from.

Be careful what you wish for is all...

[sigmtnman]

Well, that's a separate and unrelated argument as far as I'm concerned.

As a former bar/restaurant investor/owner, allowing guns alongside alcohol in establishments located in a state where a large portion of the residents think it's just fine to spend thousands on lift-kits and wheels for trucks they'll never take off-road in leu of things like higher education, or where seeing 20k+ bass boats parked right next to doublewides in leu of moving their families to better homes is common-place, I'd tend to lien towards Randy's conclusion too I guess... seeing as so many of the firearms owners who are so into the debate spend far more on their toy collection than on actual practice-ammo , I'm kind of fine with it actually, hate to get hit by a stray bullet while sipping on a cold Stella after a couple good ol' boys get into it after arguing over whether Hank Jr. is better than Jerry Reed or not...

Having a good time and enjoying some good food isn't dependent on whether I'm heeled or not to me. To each his own...

HE HADN'T SAID ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT MAMA,

OR TRAINS,

OR PRISON

[mikegideon]

That's it. Guess this is were the saying "opinions are like a**holes..." comes from.

Be careful what you wish for is all...

You're just wrong on this one. What makes you think guns ever left bars in the first place? I did a little survey one night in a quiet neighborhood bar, just to answer one of my anti buddies. Everybody in there had quick access, one without leaving his stool.

How can you buy into the "wild west" idea?

[kb4ns]

If someone chooses not to let it affect their business decision...then by all means that is their choice.

I just don't think anyone on here should be surprised if someone else points out a business is owned by someone who is anti, let alone someone who actively lobbied against pro-carry legislation, who filed a lawsuit against a pro-carry law and especially someone that is Randy Rayburn.

That would be my biggest issue with the whole deal. I respect a business owner's right to treat their property anyway they choose. I do, however, take issue with this man and his serious movements toward anti-gun legislation. Why would it have been so hard for him to just post his property and be done with it?

[mikegideon]

That would be my biggest issue with the whole deal. I respect a business owner's right to treat their property anyway they choose. I do, however, take issue with this man and his serious movements toward anti-gun legislation. Why would it have been so hard for him to just post his property and be done with it?

Because he has an itty bitty... Because he believes that he has superior intelligence, and is really too stupid to know how many of his customers were packing in his place over the years. I've spent significant money in his place over the years, but it's off limits until he sells it.

[Smith]

I agree with CK1.

To be consistent and apply those same concerns evenly I also think every woman driver must be sent to Richard Petty's driving school before getting a DL license at age 30, everyone should take a DOT approved safety class before being allowed to buy a cell phone with special permits issued for talking on the phone in a car, and that every person take and aptitude and health exam before being in the proximity of the opposite sex. Oh, and before one can exercise their 1A rights they must have a masters in English from an accredited university .... after paying a $200 testing fee of course. After all ... it's for the children.

[mikegideon]

I agree with CK1.

To be consistent and apply those same concerns evenly I also think every woman driver must be sent to Richard Petty's driving school before getting a DL license at age 30, everyone should take a DOT approved safety class before being allowed to buy a cell phone with special permits issued for talking on the phone in a car, and that every person take and aptitude and health exam before being in the proximity of the opposite sex. Oh, and before one can exercise their 1A rights they must have a masters in English from an accredited university .... after paying a $200 testing fee of course. After all ... it's for the children.

English degrees are overrated, but I agree that they help alot in self defense situations, especially when you're drinkin'

[JayC]

Look, my point is, I wouldn't trust half the guys who shot this past weekends IDPA match to take a shot inside an even semi-crowded restaurant and not hit some bystander by accident, and these are of the small cross-section of the CCing population who are actually putting forth the effort to gain some experience shooting simulated real-world related scenarios and are usually already better than most gunowners/CCers if only just by showing up...

If you had to qualify or pass a special level of competence in order to earn the right to carry in a bar/restaurant then I'd be all for it, but since the overwhelming majority of gunowners out there can't hit the side of a barn yet can still easily get their HCP, I'm very weary of it... not worried about the BG, worried about someone's daughter/son/mother/etc behind them...

Sorry for going off-topic, just putting it out there that the gap between the level of responsibility required and what's commonplace is vast and people do stupid s**t all the time, IMO at some point you've got to have some faith in the laws in place and the LEO's to handle their business, fists aren't posted and...

I'd add that I'd see the issue differently if they changed it to require you to OC in a restaurant/bar, for me that would be a fair compromise.

LEO's are 5 times more likely to hit an innocent person than HCP/CCW holders nationally... There are lots of good reasons for this, mostly because HCP holders know exactly who the bad guy is because they're normally the victim... but if somebody starts throwing rounds in a public place, the math says it's better for a HCP holder to be the one shooting than the police.

A perfect example of this is during the recently shoot out in a bar (The video of which was posted on here a few months back)... civilian shooters didn't hit any innocent bystanders and were able to protect themselves from some gang bangers.... I'm sure it could have turned out different but here is one example of a bar shoot out which didn't turn deadly for innocent bystanders.

Also, the truth is going to and from the restaurant is probably the most likely time a HCP holder is going to need to use their weapon... Most criminals won't try to rob a place with 100 people in it... but try walking to your car at night in a bad part of town... So disarming people inside the restaurant also disarms them outside where they are very unlikely to hit somebody other than the criminal threatening them.

I'm sorry but reality is that as bad as HCP holders can be and still pass the test, they're just not hitting innocent bystanders left and right like you suggest in this or any other state.

[Smith]

In all seriousness I'd like to know what /if any stats are on stray bullets hitting innocents from HCP holders. My gut feeling is it is extremely low if any due to the fact I can't find any articles in those regards.

[JayC]

In all seriousness I'd like to know what /if any stats are on stray bullets hitting innocents from HCP holders. My gut feeling is it is extremely low if any due to the fact I can't find any articles in those regards.

About 2-2.5% in the last report I saw.

[mikegideon]

In all seriousness I'd like to know what /if any stats are on stray bullets hitting innocents from HCP holders. My gut feeling is it is extremely low if any due to the fact I can't find any articles in those regards.

Most of them have a hard enough time hitting the BG

[Worriedman]

If everyone obeyed the law, we would not need them big 'ol jail houses.

Anybody that thinks just because the law says you can't have guns needs to check out Chicago or DC any hot Saturday night.

Long ago, and not so far away, I spent quite a bit of time in places that sold alcohol, among other things. A lot of them were built on stilts, and sat close to water. Each place had a couple of guys that had some iron about them, and you learned early to be polite if you did not want them to place them up side your head with some force if you chose to not abide by the rules of the establishment. If required, they would adjust the type of use. They liked your money, they did not like lip or trouble. They did not drive squad cars either.

Fast forward, pretty much any place that serves is going to have a few people who care not one whit for the rules and regulations, and if you think a "Law" is going to filter that type of individual out, I have some land for sale.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Restaurant carry doesn't much matter to me because I don't exactly like crowds and MAYBE will go out once every few years out of choice rather than obligation.

As Fallguy mentioned, I'm not concerned about safety in the restaurant or bar. It is the trip to and from that is of concern.

Was up in Nashvegas a few years ago for a NAMM convention. Would just as soon stay in the hotel room every night with room service and TV, but business friends would get their feelings hurt. So usually go to restaurants and bars with associates. One saturday night should have taken a cab back to the hotel, but the hotel was only a few blocks out of downtown. An easy walk.

Right past all the bars, it gets real dark and lonely for a couple of blocks before arriving at the hotel. Had to walk thru a large flock of urban youth loitering in the dark. They appeared exceedingly intoxicated and rowdy. No cops around. Not much street traffic.

Nothing bad happened, but it wasn't a comfortable block to walk even in relatively safe downtown Nashvegas. Was wishing the pistol was in my pocket rather than the hotel room safe.

On the other hand, there are not many downtown streets in Chattanooga I'd care to walk at night. A few blocks right downtown, but not many. Perhaps am too cautious.

I still occasionally play piano in bars. Inside the bar doesn't usually look risky. The trip to and from the bar is a slightly different story. Not incredibly risky, but would just as soon stay home.

[Sidinman]

You're just wrong on this one. What makes you think guns ever left bars in the first place? I did a little survey one night in a quiet neighborhood bar, just to answer one of my anti buddies. Everybody in there had quick access, one without leaving his stool.

How can you buy into the "wild west" idea?

And I bet good money they were all [hush] drinking!

Been in a few places just like that.

[mikegideon]

And I bet good money they were all [hush] drinking!

Been in a few places just like that.

Yes they were. I've done quite a bit of drinking in my day. I have never found that alcohol gives me an overwhelming desire to go to prison. There are better ways to settle an argument.

[JAB]

I'm not worried about the proximity of alcohol and firearms, I'm worried about drunken' idiots and their pension to do stupid things being in close proximity to firearms... some a-hole who's been drinking maybe starting some s**t with someone who hasn't been drinking but who's carrying, maybe throws a punch, maybe breaks a bottle...

So, do you think that those drunken idiots step out of the door of the bar and just teleport home so that there is no chance of running into them anywhere else? Do you think that the only time people are drunk is when they are in bars? I've seen drunk people in convenient stores, in Walmart and just walking down the street. Should carry be forbidden in those locations, too, just because the HCP holder might encounter a belligerent drunk?

Stop in any place that sells beer not for on-site consumption on a Friday or Saturday night and chances are good that there will be some drunk who didn't plan ahead and buy enough booze before getting started and who is on a 'resupply' run. Should those of us who carry be required to stay away from any location where someone else may be drinking/drunk because of what someone else might do? Should we have our rights curtailed because someone else chooses to drink to excess in a public place?

Edited June 16, 2010 by JAB

[bubbiesdad]

Look, my point is, I wouldn't trust half the guys who shot this past weekends IDPA match to take a shot inside an even semi-crowded restaurant and not hit some bystander by accident, and these are of the small cross-section of the CCing population who are actually putting forth the effort to gain some experience shooting simulated real-world related scenarios and are usually already better than most gunowners/CCers if only just by showing up...

If you had to qualify or pass a special level of competence in order to earn the right to carry in a bar/restaurant then I'd be all for it, but since the overwhelming majority of gunowners out there can't hit the side of a barn yet can still easily get their HCP, I'm very weary of it... not worried about the BG, worried about someone's daughter/son/mother/etc behind them...

Sorry for going off-topic, just putting it out there that the gap between the level of responsibility required and what's commonplace is vast and people do stupid s**t all the time, IMO at some point you've got to have some faith in the laws in place and the LEO's to handle their business, fists aren't posted and...

I'd add that I'd see the issue differently if they changed it to require you to OC in a restaurant/bar, for me that would be a fair compromise.

So, how do you feel as somone familiar with bar/restaurants, about loading someone up with alcohol, and sending them on their way to their car to endanger citizens on the road? Should there be a special training course for drivers who wish to dine in restaurants that serve alcohol?

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

This whole thing exploded... All because I wanted to have a surprise party for my girlfriend.

[Punisher84]

Well, personally, I think CK can go F himself. That opinion means more too because I live in a house, drive a car, have all my teeth, have put many rounds downrange in various training and IDPA scenarios, and have not now and will never sleep with my sister.

Arrogant prick.

[Defender]

I don't know the answer, either nationally or locally, but anecdotally, I'm an avid newswatcher, and I can remember only 2 locally that had negative attention in the last few years. one was a guy getting robbed outside a store at Rivergate mall, and he hit an innocent bystander when returning fire at a robber. Cant remember if he was charged though...the other was a guy in Antioch that had a business...he shot and killed a robber one time, and then another time he chased a robber out of a business and was shooting at them as they left....seems he took some criticizm at least on the second incident. I think i remember the report saying the police said he was not in danger and shouldnt have tried preventing the bad guy from leaving. I think he was charged in that one.

Also, as far as LEOs is concerned, it is NOT LEO bashing to admit that they are also poorly practiced on average. and the FBI has even recently released a report that states that on average, the typical street thug is more practiced in street shooting AND MORE ACCURATE than is the average cop. I think that report, or a link to it was posted on this forum several months ago.

I think the bottom line here, is that the Rayburns are simply cowards in trying to get the law to do for them what they lack the courage to do for themselves. If it was JUST a matter of him feeling that strongly,m he would just post his places, despite the possible loss of patronage that that might incur. instead, he tries ot make all his competitors post as well.

In all seriousness I'd like to know what /if any stats are on stray bullets hitting innocents from HCP holders. My gut feeling is it is extremely low if any due to the fact I can't find any articles in those regards.

[titan14]

Well, personally, I think CK can go F himself. That opinion means more too because I live in a house, drive a car, have all my teeth, have put many rounds downrange in various training and IDPA scenarios, and have not now and will never sleep with my sister.

Arrogant prick.

<<<<< all my teeth too!

Edited June 16, 2010 by titan14

[Guest clownsdd]

CK, just let us know when or where you open or work at a particular restaurant, bar or grill and we will stay away.

[Fallguy]

Well, personally, I think CK can go F himself. That opinion means more too because I live in a house, drive a car, have all my teeth, have put many rounds downrange in various training and IDPA scenarios, and have not now and will never sleep with my sister.

Arrogant prick.

Please do not engage in personal attacks or name calling.

Warning given...