Question for the wheel-gunners

[Guest bkelm18]

Ok so, I have been on a quest to buy a compact gun for summer carry/deep concealment to replace my Kel-Tec P3AT. I was really wanting something in .45ACP, but it seems to me through my searches, the only compact .45's that are affordable to me and are compact enough are the Taurus Millennium Pro PT145 and the Glock 36. I like the Taurus because it's a compact with 10 rounds of .45. But I have noticed that Taurus makes a few more lemons than other popular manufacturers and they have a bad rap as having terrible customer service despite having a lifetime warranty. I like the Glock because it's pretty compact and 6 or 7 rounds of .45 ain't that bad. Downside being, it's a Glock. Haha. So, since my search for a compact .45 auto has come up fruitless for the time being, I have turned my attention to revolvers. It seems that the .38 Special is the standard for concealed carry defensive rounds. I am curious as to how the .38 Sp stacks up ballistically against it's auto counterparts. I read on some sight that the .38 Sp delivers the same kinetic energy as a .380 Auto. Is that true? If it is, I might as well stick with the Kel-Tec. Any and all advice concerning the matters I have discussed is greatly welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.

[cadillacdude1975]

i had a 36, hated it. too many FTF and FTE with it. didnt matter what ammo i used. the G36's are referred to as the bastard glock.

[Guest bkelm18]

i had a 36, hated it. too many FTF and FTE with it. didnt matter what ammo i used. the G36's are referred to as the bastard glock.

Yea that's one of the reasons I don't want to go with it.

[The Rabbi]

i had a 36, hated it. too many FTF and FTE with it. didnt matter what ammo i used. the G36's are referred to as the bastard glock.

I had a customer with that exact problem. Changed mags, changed ammo, nothing helped.

I took the gun out and it cycled flawlessly with cheap American brand ammo. The gun is unforgiving of limp-wristing.

fwiw, it is the only Glock I have shot that I would consider carrying. My only complaint was the gap between the bottom of the grip and the mag. My pinky got pinched there, but I think different floor plate would help.

Kahr makes a similar sized P45. Ask Kahrman about his.

Anyway, whoever told you .38spc has the same ballistics as .380 doesn't know what he's talking about. For starters, which .38spc are we talking about? 158gr LRN? 158gr +P LHP? 125gr SJWC? There are dozens of loadings for the round, all of them different. That's part of what makes .38spc such a terrific round.

The evidence, based on Ed Lovette's Snubby book, is that the 158gr +P LHP behaves about like a 230gr .45acp fmj. That is, pretty darn effective.

But if you don't like .38 you can get the gun in .357mag or 9mm or if you look real hard, .44spc.

[Guest bkelm18]

Anyway, whoever told you .38spc has the same ballistics as .380 doesn't know what he's talking about. For starters, which .38spc are we talking about? 158gr LRN? 158gr +P LHP? 125gr SJWC? There are dozens of loadings for the round, all of them different. That's part of what makes .38spc such a terrific round.

The evidence, based on Ed Lovette's Snubby book, is that the 158gr +P LHP behaves about like a 230gr .45acp fmj. That is, pretty darn effective.

But if you don't like .38 you can get the gun in .357mag or 9mm or if you look real hard, .44spc.

I dunno, it was some random website I found trying to find ballistics info. From what I have seen, I like the .38 Sp. Good round for self defense. I looked at the .357mag but I think the recoil might be a bit much for a snubby. But then again, I've never even fired a revolver. Sounds like I need to take a trip to the range and try some.

[The Rabbi]

double tap

[DaveTN]

Well, I have a Smith & Wesson model 36 revolver for situations that require a highly concealable firearm. I carried mine for years in an ankle holster.

Mine is a .38, but you can get a J-frame in .357mag. That would make the ammo issue pretty much moot.

.45ACP is also my first choice for a handgun round but sometimes you have to give up a little for concealment. The .38 is far superior to a .380 and I would even take it over a 9mm.

I looked at the .357mag but I think the recoil might be a bit much for a snubby. But then again, I've never even fired a revolver. Sounds like I need to take a trip to the range and try some.

.357mag isn’t too bad in a steel or stainless model, but it is a handful. I would stay away from the alloy frames, or at least make the comparison between the two.

[graycrait]

I have had a bucket load of revolvers and love the mechanics of the things. S&W revolvers are really easy to tune up for smooth double action shooting. I have had Titaninium .357's, 9mm Taurus, 9mm Ruger and the usual suspects in .38 and .357 steel revolvers including other S&W's, Rugers and Rossi's. The only problem I had was with a Taurus 85 that had light primer strikes. Personally I carry a Kel Tec .32 and a Glock 19. My experience is that the DA Revolvers need to have a very nice smooth pull to shoot well. If I were to get another, and I might, I would get a .38 S&W in the 640 series. Ballistically, good .38+P are enough. Good geography selections and positive attitude will eliminate all but .2% of all trouble, good shot placement will take care of the rest. Practice shooting 3x5 cards with a 1" dot in the middle.

[Guest bkelm18]

Thanks for all your help. I've been looking at the SW 442 and it's seems to fit my price range. I think I might head down to the shop and fondle some and see if they have any to rent.

[deerslayer]

I am in a similar situation. I generally carry a Glock 27 or 19, but want something smaller to use while running/jogging. Right now, that gun is a P3AT, but I don't have an abundance of faith in the .380's stopping power, especially coming out of a 2" Kel-Tec. I am considering a Smith 442, but I am not overwhelmed with the stopping power of snub-nosed .38s (although they are an improvement over a P3AT). I have a holster in mind that I am going to use in a G27 jogging experiment, but if it still feels too bulky, I will probably pick up a 442. Ironically, the Glock 27 is lighter than some of the revolvers often regarded as the most comfortable/concealable.

[Guest bkelm18]

I am in a similar situation. I generally carry a Glock 27 or 19, but want something smaller to use while running/jogging. Right now, that gun is a P3AT, but I don't have an abundance of faith in the .380's stopping power, especially coming out of a 2" Kel-Tec. I am considering a Smith 442, but I am not overwhelmed with the stopping power of snub-nosed .38s (although they are an improvement over a P3AT). I have a holster in mind that I am going to use in a G27 jogging experiment, but if it still feels too bulky, I will probably pick up a 442. Ironically, the Glock 27 is lighter than some of the revolvers often regarded as the most comfortable/concealable.

I looked at some of the gelatin ballistic tests for the .38 Sp +P 158 gr LHP and they looked good to me. About a foot of penetration with expansion up to around .6". Not shabby in my book.

[Guest Phantom6]

... But I have noticed that Taurus makes a few more lemons than other popular manufacturers and they have a bad rap as having terrible customer service despite having a lifetime warranty. .....It seems that the .38 Special is the standard for concealed carry defensive rounds. .....Any and all advice concerning the matters I have discussed is greatly welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.

Well, I just must be living under the right star. My wife and I have 10 Taurus handguns between us chambered in .22, .38, .357, .44 Mag. and have only had a problem with one of them. When I sent it back to Taurus under their life time warranty the gun was fixed and returned in a bit over a week. The pistol has functioned flawlessly since. My advice is don't believe everything you read on the internet except for what I just wrote 'cause you and I live in the same town and you can come down to my office any time, see, count and inspect the pistols and look into my eyes when I tell you the same thing I just posted.

[Guest rockytop]

Can anyone give us some statistics and/or opinions on the 45ACP Kahr? I think they have come out with a PM45. I have a PM9 and really like it.

[Guest bkelm18]

Well, I just must be living under the right star. My wife and I have 10 Taurus handguns between us chambered in .22, .38, .357, .44 Mag. and have only had a problem with one of them. When I sent it back to Taurus under their life time warranty the gun was fixed and returned in a bit over a week. The pistol has functioned flawlessly since. My advice is don't believe everything you read on the internet except for what I just wrote 'cause you and I live in the same town and you can come down to my office any time, see, count and inspect the pistols and look into my eyes when I tell you the same thing I just posted.

Haha fair enough. I guess I was just a little swayed by some of the stories of people waiting months for Taurus to send back their gun they had sent in. I will take your advice into consideration. But I'll tell you, I just got back from the gun shop, they didn't have any Tauruses (Taurusi? Tauri? Haha) or any SW lightweights, but I did fondle one of the Kahr compacts... oh my lawd. It wasn't a .45 but oh man I almost bought it right then and there. Those are some mighty fine pistols. I just wish their .45 compact was a little more easy on the wallet.

[Guest bkelm18]

Can anyone give us some statistics and/or opinions on the 45ACP Kahr? I think they have come out with a PM45. I have a PM9 and really like it.

I can tell you I wish I had $650 for the PM45 haha.

[Guest theolog]

How about the Glock 38 or XD .45 Compact? I don't know about "deep concealment" but certainly very concealable even if you're scantily clad.

If I had to have a revolver for CCW, I'd go with a S&W Model 60, either 2-1/8" or 3" barrel so I'd have the option of .38+p or .357. I'm leery of .38s, but .357 in that package would be a bear. If that was too large, then the M&P 450 or 360.

Then again, for all around attractiveness, the new 586 is QUITE appealing! But, its pricey too.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=43926&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

[Guest bkelm18]

How about the Glock 38 or XD .45 Compact? I don't know about "deep concealment" but certainly very concealable even if you're scantily clad.

If I had to have a revolver for CCW, I'd go with a S&W Model 60, either 2-1/8" or 3" barrel so I'd have the option of .38+p or .357. I'm leery of .38s, but .357 in that package would be a bear. If that was too large, then the M&P 450 or 360.

Then again, for all around attractiveness, the new 586 is QUITE appealing! But, its pricey too.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=43926&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

I'm personally not a huge fan of Glocks. They just don't feel right in the grip. And the XD45 is too large for what I have in mind. I had an XD40. Great gun but a little clunky.

[KahrMan]

Bkelm,

As you can tell by my name, I am a fan of Kahrs. I started with the P9, then moved to the PM9 and now carry the P45. All have been very reliable and accurate. They are very slim, easy to carry and fit my hand great. I have fondled the PM45 and like it as well.

The Rabbi finally talked me into getting a SW 638. It is a great little carry gun. I switch up between that and the P45. The J Frame is actually more comfortable to carry than the P45 when I use a IWB. Although I like the 45acp for self defense, i do not feel underpowered when I carry the 38 with +p ammo.

[Guest bkelm18]

Bkelm,

As you can tell by my name, I am a fan of Kahrs. I started with the P9, then moved to the PM9 and now carry the P45. All have been very reliable and accurate. They are very slim, easy to carry and fit my hand great. I have fondled the PM45 and like it as well.

The Rabbi finally talked me into getting a SW 638. It is a great little carry gun. I switch up between that and the P45. The J Frame is actually more comfortable to carry than the P45 when I use a IWB. Although I like the 45acp for self defense, i do not feel underpowered when I carry the 38 with +p ammo.

My one gripe against the Kahrs is that a new magazine costs $40.

[Guest Halfpint]

I have to agree with KahrMan whole-heartedly. I had a P45 for a few months--had to sell it to pay tuition --and loved it. About the easiest .45ACP to conceal, period. The break-in period only had one FTE, no other issues, and I wound up putting ~550 rounds through it once break-in was done.

[Guest Phantom6]

Haha fair enough. I guess I was just a little swayed by some of the stories of people waiting months for Taurus to send back their gun they had sent in.

Ford drivers say the same thing about Chevy's and Chevy drivers return the favor.