Found this snakeskin by my front door ... any ideas what kind?

[Capbyrd]

I worked there.

[ShaunM]

I watched a show on snakes, I believe it was on the discovery channel about cotton mouths and copperheads. During the research they found out that a copper head is more likely to strike at you than a cotton mouth. Also if a cotton mouth bite you more than likely he will give you what they call a dry bite meaning little to no venom will be delivered. With a copper head 99% of the time you will get a wet bite meaning it will deilver a venomous bite. I can't remember the name of the show but I thought it was pretty cool. I have never had a cotton mouth chase me, they all seem to just get out of the way as fast as they can.

[kb4ns]

Haven't we all been there once?

Yep.

[Guest Jamie]

I watched a show on snakes, I believe it was on the discovery channel....

Well, that does it then... Can't argue with the Discovery channel...

J.

[Oh Shoot]

Think I'll just let this thread go. Herpetology urban legend is obviously preserved for yet another generation.

Has been such since that first talking snake, I reckon.

- OS

[ShaunM]

Well, that does it then... Can't argue with the Discovery channel...

J.

They actually went out into the swamps and tested all this on wild snakes. It was just cool to see the other side of the myths.

[ShaunM]

Think I'll just let this thread go. Herpetology urban legend is obviously preserved for yet another generation.

Has been such since that first talking snake, I reckon.

- OS

I agree to many urban legends about snakes.

[towerclimber37]

That's not the end you have to worry about though...

Also, by the time you can inspect a snake that closely, it's most likely too late to decide whether to kill it or leave it alone.

Better to just learn what the 4 poisonous snakes here in the U.S. look like and go from there. Anything that isn't one of those 4 isn't going to be a problem.

Those 4 are:

Rattlers - Several species, but all have one thing in common - the rattle - and that makes them easy to identify, as a rule.

Copperheads

Cotton Mouths/Water Moccasins

And lastly, Coral snakes. It's the only one of the 4 that isn't a pit viper.

All of the pit vipers have the same general build - fat for their length - and the same shaped head. And there's also those 2 pits between their eye and nose, if you wanna get close enough to look.

There are a couple of look-alike non-poisonous snakes, like the puff adder, that has the same general build, but it doesn't have pits, poison, or fangs.

And as a rule, all the non-poisonous snakes are slim for their length, and have a more egg-shaped head, compared to the arrow-head shape of the pit vipers.

Belly scales and the shape of their pupils, etc. are all good identifiers "after the fact", but they're tough to use when you're dealing with a live snake that you have to decide what to do with/about.

J.

Unfortunately, that's a rule only unless you head to south Florida, where non indigenous species are now making themselves at home.

I don't know if it's an urban myth but I have heard that folks are finding cobras running around down there...

OS, Hunter, No disrespect to you but I highly suggest that you don't attempt to make friends with a cottonmouth.

I didn't advocate killing them..simply giving them a wide berth. You gentlemen are welcome to pursue any line of attention you like regarding them but I myself will make every attempt to leave them alone....at a distance. I haven't seen the discovery channel show but I've seen more than my fair share of cottonmouth moccasins.

They'll bite ya.

[Guest Jamie]

Among the most poison snakes in the US, the Cotton Mouth, or Water Moccasin ranks in the top array, but the Cottonmouth is not only poisonous, he is also among the most aggressive and bad tempered of snakes.

Cotton Mouth Snake

The Cottonmouth, commonly called "Water Moccasin", is one of our most venemous snake species. They have a mean disposition and don't hesitate to strike when cornered.

Cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus)

Cottonmouths are usually considered the most dangerous. This is because they have a bad temper and will readily bite. Their venom is very nasty in that it often causes symptoms like gangrene, causing tissue to rot or have to be amputated. These are very nasty bites

venemouswhattodo

All of the above matches my own experience with Cotton mouths/Water Moccasins. And I've lived near lakes, rivers, creeks, and various bodies of water all my life, and have encountered a few.

So, write it off as an urban myth if you like, it's all the same to me.

J.

[Oh Shoot]

...

They'll bite ya.

Said I'd duck out, but can't resist.

Obviously, any snake will bite you if you threaten it enough and get close enough. Little bitty garter snakes will.

Here's one of your own Gawga boys (UGA) synopsis of a research project they did on cottonmouth "aggressiveness":

---------------

Defensive Behavior of Cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorus) toward Humans

J. Whitfield Gibbons and Michael E. Dorcas

Venomous snakes are often perceived as aggressive antagonists, with the North American cottonmouth having a particularly notorious reputation for such villainy. We designed tests to measure the suite of behavioral responses by free-ranging cottonmouths to encounters with humans. When confronted, 23 (51%) of 45 tested tried to escape, and 28 (78%) of 36 tested used threat displays and other defensive tactics; only 13 of 36 cottonmouths bit an artificial hand used in the tests. Our findings challenge conventional wisdom about aggressive behavior in an animal perceived as more dangerous than it is. Changing irrational negative attitudes about venomous snakes is a necessary step toward quelling the recently documented global decline in reptiles.

SREL Reprint #2583

Gibbons, J. W. and M. E. Dorcas. 2002. Defensive behavior of cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorus) toward humans. Copeia 1:195-198.

You can get a reprint of whole study at:

Defensive Behavior of Cottonmouths toward Humans

-----------------------------------

Many rattlesnakes will "stand their ground" also, but this doesn't equate with "aggressive." Like rattlesnakes with their rattling warning (not every time), cottonmouths might put on a display of craned neck with open mouth, flattening to look bigger, and even secreting a noxious odor (or like a rattlesnake it may just haul ass). Again, bluff is not aggression. It's more akin to fear, although that is a human attribute we use. Obviously if a snakes stands his ground and you encroach, he might bite you. Any snake.

Snakes are not territorial. They don't mark it, defend it, or fight other snakes for it. They are where they are because the hunting, temperature, moisture, and other environmental factors suit them. Females either drop eggs and move on (most snakes) or bear their young live (cottonmouths, rattlesnakes, copperheads) and move on. They do not suckle or provide food or shelter for their young, do not build nests to protect (one species of Cobra does, I believe). Except for sparse anecdotal evidence (urban lore) no snake in North America is known to defend its young, which makes sense, since the young strike out on their own almost immediately. Since momma won't feed them, they have to.

Snakes do not chase people. They only chase prey. (Okay, maybe a 150lb anaconda will see you as prey).

If a snake slithers AT you, it was confused as to which was stage left; they can't see all that well (distances varies between species) but anything past a few feet is mostly confined to movement. They get 90% of their info from "smelling" with their tongues, which is why they are constantly flicking. Then again, almost everybody has had a snake chase them, or knows someone who has; a lot of the time they are Blue Racers, which of course we don't have in the south. But they'll ALL chase you.

Please.

Cottonmouths are not particularly arboreal, but all snakes can climb trees and all snakes can swim. Of course, on every rare occasion that a cottonmouth DOES climb a tree, it WILL jump into the first canoe that comes along, since that serves the purpose of the snake so well -- everybody knows somebody this has happened too, right?

Please.

If memory serves, you believe we have breeding populations of "painters", too?

As for Jack, I believe he has a personal relationship with a Yeti, so I guess anything's possible.

- OS

Edited June 17, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

Unfortunately, that's a rule only unless you head to south Florida, where non indigenous species are now making themselves at home.

I don't know if it's an urban myth but I have heard that folks are finding cobras running around down there...

I wouldn't be surprised at anything that turned up in Florida.

J.

[Oh Shoot]

....

All of the above matches my own experience with Cotton mouths/Water Moccasins. And I've lived near lakes, rivers, creeks, and various bodies of water all my life, and have encountered a few.

.

Repeat a tale over generations and it becomes true, because "everybody says that".

Snakes, including cottonmouths, get a bad rap.

Need new PR agents.

- OS

[Guest Jamie]

...They get 90% of their info from "smelling" with their tongues, which is why they are constantly flicking.

Do remember that pit vipers have an extra set of organs that sense heat, and work as a kind of "radar" to find prey.

They may use their tongues to "smell" - actually, they use 'em to deposit molecules on the Jacob's organ in the roof of their mouths - but the pits act as target identification and tracking sensors.

Cottonmouths are not particularly arboreal, but all snakes can climb trees and all snakes can swim. Of course, on every rare occasion that a cottonmouth DOES climb a tree, it WILL jump into the first canoe that comes along, since that serves the purpose of the snake so well -- everybody knows somebody this has happened too, right?

Yup. Know one fellow who dumped 6 rounds of .357 mag into a Moc - and the bottom of his boat - and had to race back to the dock before the boat sank.

Also have a relative that was nearly killed by Cottonmouth bites. Yes, I said bites.

He got real unlucky and found several in one of his cattle ponds.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

Repeat a tale over generations and it becomes true, because "everybody says that".

Snakes, including cottonmouths, get a bad rap.

Need new PR agents.

- OS

So personal experience is "a tale"?

And sorry, but I know quite a few folks that deal with snakes both professionally and as a hobby... and though I'm sure they'll agree that snakes in general get a bad rap, they'll also tell you that some have a well-earned reputation for being bad-tempered, aggressive, and generally less-than-fearful of humans.

J.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Jamie

[Oh Shoot]

Thousands of people are bitten each year in the US by venomous snakes, and 5 or 10 die each year. It's also estimated that only 10% or less of those bitten didn't provoke the snake into it. Trying to kill one is one of the best ways to get bit.

I've seen only two for pert damn sure cottonmouths in the wild, both in GA near the coast.

Certainly a cottonmouth would bite you as readily as a rattler or copperhead under the same circumstances, those circumstances being you within striking distance of the snake!

But you'll never convince me a cottonmouth will charge you to do it.

Most adults wouldn't die from a single full load snakebite on an extremity from copperhead, rattler, or cottonmouth. But tissue necrosis and whatnot can be pretty bad from untreated one.

Though I DEFEND venomous snakes, that doesn't mean I don't AVOID them. Which means not purposefully getting close enough to any questionable ones to necessarily identify them. Hence, I let them ALL live.

(I'll tell ya MY snakebite story sometime).

- OS

Edited June 17, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest jackdm3]

As for Jack, I believe he has a personal relationship with a Yeti, so I guess anything's possible.

- OS

Still tired from the trip to NOLA, so I'll just say that I abhor a yeti's general climate. Though I did used to have the hair for it. But no digital pics of it, so I guess it didn't happen.

[Guest Jamie]

I've seen only two for pert damn sure cottonmouths in the wild, both in GA near the coast.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

But you'll never convince me a cottonmouth will charge you to do it.

I've seen more than a dozen in the past 40 years or so. And that's 100% identified, not "pretty sure". Even lost an argument with one once over a stringer full'a fish.

But then I've spent an awful lot of time outside, and in areas that they like.

As for convincing you of their habits... If you run into enough of 'em they'll do that themselves.

Though I DEFEND venomous snakes, that doesn't mean I don't AVOID them. Which means not purposefully getting close enough to any questionable ones to necessarily identify them. Hence, I let them ALL live.

(I'll tell ya MY snakebite story sometime).

- OS

I've lived my life in such a way that not getting close enough to identify them is pretty much just not an option. I've spent far too much time working outside, and near the water. And as I've mentioned before, there's a fair number of the scaly fellows that live just ( barely ) outside my door.

( A couple of weeks ago I went into my step-daughter's room to ask her something, and found her sitting on the edge of her bed, looking out her window like she was watching TV. When I asked what she was looking at she said "snake" and pointed to the tree/shrub that grows up beside and past her window. There was a 3 -4 ft. long Bull Snake climbing down, and looking back at her. It had been up in a bird's nest making a raid. My step-daughter though it was one of the most fascinating things she'd ever seen. )

Oh, and in the "for what it's worth" department, I have never had an encounter with a rattler. I've seen maybe one or two from a distance, but never ended up closer than maybe 20 - 25 yards away. And those instances have been rare. I know more than one old farmer who's run into 'em while cutting wood though, so I guess I've just been lucky.

Also, another reason may be that "my" side of the river doesn't seem to have much of a population of 'em. ( The other side is a different story. ) We do have plenty of Copperheads and Cottonmouths though.

BTW, I'll have to tell you MY snakebite story some time. I was almost shot over it.

J.

[Guest BEARMAN]

Would love to hear both you guy's "snake bite" stories...at your leisure, of course.

Up in my neck of the Tennessee woods, we're inundated with Timber Rattlers. A friend killed one that was 58" long, and had eleven rattles and a button, just a little ways down the road from me.

Wife was cutting the grass on the riding mower and she had quit when I pulled in from work. I proceeded to take over the mowing because the yard was beginning to get steeper in that area. I looked down, and there laid a young rattler, with his head and rattles missing, still very limber.

I guess he seen/heard the mower coming, got into a coiled striking position...mower had no mercy on the little feller.

Not wasted though...made her a nice bracelet outta the hide, after tanning it out.

While archery hunting one October evening on the ground, I was having no luck, and it was getting dusky dark, I had been hearing rustling in the leaves nearby for a little while and figured it was a mouse, or a lizard or such.

I went to reach for my day pack lying on the ground, and I heard this buzzing sound. Took me a minute to digest what I was hearing...a very young rattler!

It kept rattling, and moving away from me, so I waited about 15 minutes and got the hell outta there...in the opposite direction, of course.

Personally, I don't care what the survival rates are, or which one is meaner than the other, or which one is more inclined to give me a "dry bite" or not...bottom line fella's...I don't what to be bitten by ANY snake...poisonous, or not.

Me....I'm avoiding snake's at every opportunity, period!

[Guest Jamie]

Would love to hear both you guy's "snake bite" stories...at your leisure, of course.

Mine's kind of silly, actually, and a good example of how much more dangerous people are than snakes.

I was about 15 at the time, and had been out cutting wood with a friend of mine and his dad. This was on the very back of a 300+ acre farm, right at a dense section of woods... sort of back in a good sized cut-out that you had to drive through a fairly wide creek to get to. ( Yes, there's a reason I'm telling you this. )

We had already carted several truck-loads of wood out of there that day, and hadn't seen anything past bugs, birds, and a couple of deer all day long. While driving out with the last load for the day though, I spotted something jet black and shiny out to the right of the truck, in the middle of the pasture. We were just coming up on the creek crossing, and when my friend''s dad saw me hop off the truck, he thought I had fallen off when the truck's front dropped down the slope. So he stopped and got out to see what was going on.

Meanwhile, I had crossed the 25 or 30 yards to what I had seen, and found a rather large Black Racer, all coiled up and sunning it's self in the grass. Knowing what it was, I just reached down and grabbed it behind it's head.

Problem was, I grabbed just a little too far back, and the snake, not caring for the disturbance or the treatment, promptly reached back and grabbed me right back.

So there I am, trying to wrestle a 6 ft. long, very irate snake off of my thumb, while also trying to yell back to the pair at the truck that I'm okay. ( My back was to 'em, so they really couldn't see what was going on. )

I finally convinced the snake to turn loose, and turned around to head back to the truck, snake in hand. My buddie's dad asked what I had. I yelled "Black snake! Wanna see it? ".

"No, just let it go, and don't kill it"

I didn't have any intention of killing it, and said so. However, it was starting to look like I could have a little fun with mister snake, and my friend's dad.

By this time, I was about halfway back to the truck, and said, "Aw, c'mon, have a look... it won't hurt ya."... still walking the whole time, holding this thing up and out in front of me so it's size could be... appreciated.

Big mistake. Y'see, the guy I was taking the snake to wasn't just afraid of 'em, he was downright phobic. And he kept a .38 there on the front seat of the farm truck, which he promptly reached in in and got when I was maybe 6 to 10 feet from the passenger side of the truck. And which he also sighted up right between my eyes, while saying "Jamie, if you don't put that thing down RIGHT NOW, I swear to god I'll drop you where you stand".

So, I put the snake down. And laughed my ass off all the way back to the house.

My "friend", btw, sat there grinning like an idiot the whole time... When I asked him about that, he said "Hell, I didn't wanna get shot too. I saw the snake about the time you jumped off the truck, and pretty much knew how things were gonna go from there."

Gee, thanks for the warning...

*sigh* Some people...

Anyway, that's the only time I've ever been bitten by any snake... and probably the closest I've ever come to dying due to a snake.

And just in case you're wondering, there's not a doubt in my mind that If I'd started around the back of that truck, I'd have gotten one or more bullet holes before I got to the other side.

J.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest BEARMAN]

Good one, Jamie!

Anybody else had any close calls with those intrepid reptiles???

Lets hear 'em!

[Guest db99wj]

I got a strike to the leg by a what looked to be a timber rattler.

Was around 17, riding my Yamaha 350 Warrior through some trails and part of it was a Kudzu area with nice hills and ravines etc. It was spring or summer, because the kudzu was nice and green, and was down the trail, when I felt something hit my leg, thought it might be a stick or something that I ran over and it popped up, well it wasn't a stick and the something was a snake, it looked like a timber rattler, slithering off, by the time I got back to where he was, he was gone.

Ok to the strike to the leg part, I was wearing motocross boots that came up to my knees, they are the hard plastic that protect your ankles and legs from impacts etc. So no injury.

Water moccasin vs water snakes. I mentioned the boat thing, from what I have been told, you have to watch them especially when they have youngins. Water snakes typically swim around, and away from you, water moccasins don't alter course as much, I have seen that first hand, swam right to us and kept on going.

[Guest BEARMAN]

I got a strike to the leg by a what looked to be a timber rattler.

Was around 17, riding my Yamaha 350 Warrior through some trails and part of it was a Kudzu area with nice hills and ravines etc. It was spring or summer, because the kudzu was nice and green, and was down the trail, when I felt something hit my leg, thought it might be a stick or something that I ran over and it popped up, well it wasn't a stick and the something was a snake, it looked like a timber rattler, slithering off, by the time I got back to where he was, he was gone.

Ok to the strike to the leg part, I was wearing motocross boots that came up to my knees, they are the hard plastic that protect your ankles and legs from impacts etc. So no injury.

Water moccasin vs water snakes. I mentioned the boat thing, from what I have been told, you have to watch them especially when they have youngins. Water snakes typically swim around, and away from you, water moccasins don't alter course as much, I have seen that first hand, swam right to us and kept on going.

Met a logger cruising his stand of timber on a 4 wheeler, over in Cheatham county, near the WMA, and he was wearing a pair of those cheap plastic snake gaiters for that very reason. I got me a pair of them too.

I know a water snake swims with only his head out of the water, and body just under the surface.

On the other hand, a Cottonmouth swims with his whole body on top of the water. This is one way you can tell the difference. FWIW.

[Guest Jamie]

Met a logger cruising his stand of timber on a 4 wheeler, over in Cheatham county, near the WMA, and he was wearing a pair of those cheap plastic snake gaiters for that very reason. I got me a pair of them too.

I know a water snake swims with only his head out of the water, and body just under the surface.

On the other hand, a Cottonmouth swims with his whole body on top of the water. This is one way you can tell the difference. FWIW.

You were on the "Rattle Snake" side of the river.

My step-daughter's psychologist lives over there, and about a month and a half ago she showed us a pic of a timber rattler her husband had just killed. It stretched from one side of the tailgate of his full- size pickup truck to the other, without it's head, and was about as big around as my thigh near the knee, at it's middle.

They live in Kingston Springs, btw... I'll have to ask her to e-mail me a copy of that pic, next time we see her.

Oh, and Cottonmouths tend to swim with their head up as well, from what I've seen... Sort of like the Loch Ness Monster. The non-poisonous water snakes do tend to look like they can barely keep their faces out of the water.

J.

[Guest jackdm3]

I was about 4. Our babysitter's husband would take us on walks in the nearby woods by Nonconnah, a hotbed for snakes. But at the time I didn't know that. There were many trails and occasionally you'd find old toys. We found a Wiffleball bat and the babysitter kept it. On the way out, I get ahead on the narrow path out when I see a rattler on my left. He's around 1.5 to 2 feet long, coiled and waiting for my move. When you watch Sesame St., you see all sorts of stuffed animals, even snakes. And those snakes like to talk which is quite deceiving for a child. So I just look right back at it. Didn't want to touch it. Didn't want to run either. Chris Pinell comes running up to me, "Hey, wait for me!" I watch him running up to me, stopping behind me and bending over at the waist with his hands on his knees while he catches his breath. "Where you going so fast and why did you stop?" I just look at him and point to the snake. And he's back to running again, back to the babysitter whilst crying. I stay and look at the snake some more until I see that bright yellow bay go to town. When down, he drapes it over the bat, takes it home, sees that his elderly mother is unloading groceries. Puts it in with the food, closes the trunk slightly, walks off stage left and waits. Mother screams, as you knew she would.

Never had a problem dealing with snakes ever since.

[Guest jackdm3]

And then there was that 10" copperhead that showed up to our secretary's feet that I grabbed with my gauntlets, put in an old aquarium but died two days later.