Churches with schools

[monkeylizard]

There's a pop-up carnival going in at the parking lot of West Wilson Middle School. I would think that carrying would still be a no-no even though school is out and it's a non-school event. We won't discuss what court orders some carnies are breaking by being within 100 yards of a school.

That got me thinking about churches with schools. I don't mean Sunday school classes, I mean private schools. If they're co-located on the same property, can you carry during church events?

I would think that if the buildings are separated and aren't mixed-use, it'd be fine in the church side, and never on ths chool side. But what if they have a sanctinasium that's used as a sanctuary on Sunday mornings, and the gym for the school during the week?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think it depends on the private school's policy.

[monkeylizard]

TCA 39-17-1309 b(1) says public or private. I'd think a school's policy wouldn't matter. Would it end up being like school sports in parks? It's a school when school is using it, but not a school when they aren't? It seems like it would matter who owns the building. If the church owns it and lets the school use it, then it'd be like a park. If the school owns it and lets the church use it, it'd be like a school. does that seem about right?

Edited June 10, 2010 by monkeylizard

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Thanks, didn't know that.

[ttocswob]

Previously discussed

and here

(Not pickin' on ya, there's some good info in those threads.)

IMO, carry in a church that's also a school, is a legal can of worms nobody wants to open. However, I always carry concealed in church, and take my chances.

Edited June 10, 2010 by ttocswob
'nutter thread

[Guest db99wj]

Yep, you can't carry while walking around, you can drop off, pick up, or leave it in the car as long as you don't handle it "on" the grounds. I deal with this daily.

[monkeylizard]

Thanks ttocswob. Those threads do indeed have some good info, but my question is still unanswered, even in those threads. I guess it's either a case of nobody knows, or nobody has challenged for a legal opinion from the AG.

[monkeylizard]

Yep, you can't carry while walking around, you can drop off, pick up, or leave it in the car as long as you don't handle it "on" the grounds. I deal with this daily.

So if church and school are co-located, school trumps church?

[Guest db99wj]

So if church and school are co-located, school trumps church?

Yes, that is my understanding.

IANAL.

I tried to search michi law thingy, but I suck at it.

[E4 No More]

The way I read it is school trumps church.

EDIT: Personally, I think that they should have left private schools out of it since they do not receive public funds, nor is it any of their danged business!

Edited June 10, 2010 by SWJewellTN

[Guest db99wj]

The way I read it is school trumps church.

EDIT: Personally, I think that they should have left private schools out of it since they do not receive public funds, nor is it any of their danged business!

I agree. Also think permit holders should be able to carry wherever they please...

[Fallguy]

Yep...a school is a school is a school

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

Yep, you can't carry while walking around, you can drop off, pick up, or leave it in the car as long as you don't handle it "on" the grounds. I deal with this daily.

yea, most of us HCP holders that have kids deal with this. I have always been under the impression that you can't leave it unattended in the car though? since my 3yr old is not very proficient at walking into school own his own I just figured I have been breaking this law from day one.

With regard to the OP - yea, I do think that the school trumps the church. Mainly because the laws are written with specific wording about schools - but not churches.

[JayC]

yea, most of us HCP holders that have kids deal with this. I have always been under the impression that you can't leave it unattended in the car though? since my 3yr old is not very proficient at walking into school own his own I just figured I have been breaking this law from day one.

With regard to the OP - yea, I do think that the school trumps the church. Mainly because the laws are written with specific wording about schools - but not churches.

Does your 3 year old attend a pre-school in the same building/campus as a k-12 school? Because pre-schools are not covered under the current law.

[Guest db99wj]

yea, most of us HCP holders that have kids deal with this. I have always been under the impression that you can't leave it unattended in the car though? since my 3yr old is not very proficient at walking into school own his own I just figured I have been breaking this law from day one.

With regard to the OP - yea, I do think that the school trumps the church. Mainly because the laws are written with specific wording about schools - but not churches.

A possible scenario is if the school is located on an adjacent, different parcel than the church. The church would be fine, the school would fall under the laws. My church and school is all on parcel.

I believe the wording is secured or maybe even locked in your car. I guess in other words, not in your seat or on the dash, of course, if the doors are locked, it is locked, I wouldn't leave it out in the open.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

Does your 3 year old attend a pre-school in the same building/campus as a k-12 school? Because pre-schools are not covered under the current law.

No, its a separate school completely. I was 100% under the impression that ALL schools (day care, pre-school, kindergarten etc...) were covered by the "schools" law. I would be a tickled pickle to be wrong!

[Guest TnRebel]

Yep...a school is a school is a school

Does that include " Home Schools" ?

[JayC]

No, its a separate school completely. I was 100% under the impression that ALL schools (day care, pre-school, kindergarten etc...) were covered by the "schools" law. I would be a tickled pickle to be wrong!

39-17-1309b1 states:

in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

For sure day care is not covered, and "pre-school" is not "school", pre means before school and since "pre-school" doesn't appear to be regulated under this law for carry...

K-12 and virtually all post-secondary schools are covered by the law, and prevent people from carrying a firearm for self defense (something we should focus on changing asap).

But day care and pre-school do not appear to be prohibited by 39-17-1309 and therefore unless posted are carry friendly zones (IANAL). I would carry at either location with no concern - as long as the day care or pre-school aren't on a school campus.

[JAB]

I believe the wording is secured or maybe even locked in your car. I guess in other words, not in your seat or on the dash, of course, if the doors are locked, it is locked, I wouldn't leave it out in the open.

Why do you have that impression? Not meant as a 'challenge' - I seriously want to know. I work at a satellite campus for a private college and the way I read the law you can't leave a firearm (doesn't say anything about loaded or unloaded from what I can find) locked in a vehicle or anywhere else on school property. The only legal thing is to have a firearm when you are picking someone up or dropping someone off - and you can't get out of the car, touch the firearm, allow anyone else to touch the firearm, etc. while on school property. Heck, I bet it would be illegal to even think about the firearm if there was some way to tell that you were doing so.

[Fallguy]

Why do you have that impression? Not meant as a 'challenge' - I seriously want to know. I work at a satellite campus for a private college and the way I read the law you can't leave a firearm (doesn't say anything about loaded or unloaded from what I can find) locked in a vehicle or anywhere else on school property. The only legal thing is to have a firearm when you are picking someone up or dropping someone off - and you can't get out of the car, touch the firearm, allow anyone else to touch the firearm, etc. while on school property. Heck, I bet it would be illegal to even think about the firearm if there was some way to tell that you were doing so.

We have debated this on here before...I personally think you can leave a handgun in a car based on the bold part below. However some aren't so sure. There have been bills to help clarify this, but they haven't passed yet..

39-17-1309©(1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

Now as stated the above only applies to the misdemeanor subsection © and not the felony subsection ( that is the intent to go armed part.

http://www.michie.com/tennessee

[Guest 270win]

When I have business to do at a school.......as in I am not dropping off or picking up passengers......I will unload my handgun and put the ammo away from the handgun and put both in the trunk BEFORE driving on the school property....that way I don't have the 'intent to go armed'....I am just possessing a firearm....and the way I understand it I am legal when doing so...because I am an adult and I can possess a handgun in my car as long as I don't handle it and don't have intent to go armed at a school.

Now if I do have 'intent to go armed'..(loaded/ready for self defense in the passenger compartment easy to get to)..about the only legal way I can have a handgun at a school is dropping off/picking up passengers and that's again only with the gun in the car.....my understanding.

Now what is interesting is that the new long gun law says that if you have a permit....a long gun with a loaded magazine you do not have 'intent to go armed'...so that is kind of nice.....I'd still hide a long gun in my trunk b/c the liberals that often run schools and the bed wetters would call police. Sad when those with permits can get criminal charges like criminals.