Carry Past a Sign - Lose Your HCP

[Oh Shoot]

I've mentioned this a couple of times before, seem to get a tin foil reaction if even that, but:

Everybody seems satisfied that the "$500 only" penalty in the new 39-17-1359 is not so bad. However,

39-17-1352. Suspension or revocation of license

clearly states that:

(a)The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by its records or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:...

(6) Has violated any other provision of §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360;

Seems automatic to me, assuming the state gets the conviction records passed around between agencies correctly.

Anyway, point is, there could be pressure exerted to really enforce the signage statute statewide. So yeah, "concealed is concealed", but then again there are also legal justifications for patting you down, too.

Just sayin', but I hope we don't look back and rue the day that we finally got this "carry in bars", since it comes with an automatic loss of permit for carrying past a sign, ANYWHERE, and not "just" a $500 fine.

- OS

Edited June 9, 2010 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

After looking at it and reading the discussions....

I agree that 39-17-1352(a)(6) says a HCP can be suspened or revoked for violating 39-17-1359 or any 39-17-13XX offense.

I'm not sure that was the intention when it was passed, but that is the way it is.

However I don't think very many things get back to the DOS that are supposed to as far as that goes.

But it is something to remember...

[Oh Shoot]

...

I agree that 39-17-1352(a)(6) says a HCP can be suspened or revoked for violating 39-17-1359 or any 39-17-13XX offense.

However I don't think very many things get back to the DOS that are supposed to as far as that goes.

Not "can" be, "shall" be.

Well, I imagine it'll at least get back to TNDOS when they pull the background check for your renewal, eh?

And btw, this was already the law before the current revisions, it's just that now with all the bitter infighting, wouldn't surprise me to see closer enforcement from now on; maybe even the occasional "push" here and there.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Not "can" be, "shall" be.

What I meant...just misspoke

Well, I imagine it'll at least get back to TNDOS when they pull the background check for your renewal, eh?

Yes, if the conviction is reported....

And btw, this was already the law before the current revisions,

True....

it's just that now with all the bitter infighting, wouldn't surprise me to see closer enforcement from now on; maybe even the occasional "push" here and there.

- OS

Perhaps.... I don't think it was necesarrly under enforced till now though. I just don't think a lot of it is going on and/or for sure not being caught.

[Oh Shoot]

...

Perhaps.... I don't think it was necesarrly under enforced till now though. I just don't think a lot of it is going on and/or for sure not being caught.

You mean carrying past a sign?

I'd say most everyone carries past a sign of some sort or another now and then, whether they mean to or not.

- OS

[Fallguy]

You mean carrying past a sign?

I'd say most everyone carries past a sign of some sort or another now and then, whether they mean to or not.

- OS

I mean carry past a legally binding sign.

Granted that now the "circle and slash" is a legal posting...I'm sure there are more places that are legally posted.

I still maintain that 99% of the places would just tell you to leave if you are made though.

I'm not saying this isn't something to consider....I'm just saying I am only slightly more concerned that was I before June 4.

[Guest Dean Wormer]

What are the odds that, come next session, the whole sign bs can be eliminated, or knocked down to a simple trespass (ie, not a misdameanor).

In Florida, there are no provisions for posting a sign such as it exists here, and state law trumps local laws. If they make you and ask you to leave, you leave, (whilst announcing the fact that you'll never come back and take your business elsewhere).

[Fallguy]

Well trespassing is a misdemeanor as well. (Every violation of criminal law is either a misdemeanor or a felony)

To be honest....I don't see the 39-17-1359 law being changed again anytime soon.

TN has preemption (state law not allowing local law) as well.

However the fact that 39-17-1359 is a misdemeanor means for a LEO to charge you the violation has to be commited in his presence. So if you were outside (assuming you were still around period) when they arrived it would have to be the property owner to actually charge you. Come to court and follow through on it. Not sure many are going to go through that trouble as long as leave when asked.

[Guest jackdm3]

Bet Randy would.

[Fallguy]

Bet Randy would.

Yep...he is the reason I have said 99% and not 99.9% would not follow through

[Guest jackdm3]

HE gives the 1%'ers a bad name.

[Guest Randy]

Would you please clarify Randy who?

[Guest Randy]

I hope I am not giving anyone a bad name.

[Guest jackdm3]

Too funny! Were you actually worried?

Randy Rayburn, I believe is the bastard's name. Originator of this imbroglio.

[Fallguy]

Would you please clarify Randy who?

About us | Sunset Grill Restaurant 615-386-3663

He did this last year..

http://blogs.tennessean.com/politics/2009/randy-rayburn-to-file-suit-challenging-guns-in-bars-law/

[Guest RevScottie]

About us | Sunset Grill Restaurant 615-386-3663

Pretty easy for me to say I would boycott his place since I can easily count on less than one hand the number of times I've eaten at an establishment that has a "Chef de Cuisine"

[Worriedman]

So say they start "patting" people down as they enter a Posted property, what do they do with the non-permit holder that is found to be carrying?

Does anyone really expect the bars/restaurants to do this. What happens if they feel a knife with a blade of over 4", do their staff, (who can carry sans permits, background checks etc. by the way).

Do they have legal authority to detain an offender or do they simply ask the perp to leave?

Whole 'nuther can of worms.

[Guest Jamie]

So say they start "patting" people down as they enter a Posted property, what do they do with the non-permit holder that is found to be carrying?

Neverminding that, how much business do you think they'd lose if a place started patting people down?

If Raburn is having fits over posting, you know he'd if he had to start that.

J.

[Guest jackdm3]

He should do it to every customer all by himself.

[JayC]

So say they start "patting" people down as they enter a Posted property, what do they do with the non-permit holder that is found to be carrying?

Does anyone really expect the bars/restaurants to do this. What happens if they feel a knife with a blade of over 4", do their staff, (who can carry sans permits, background checks etc. by the way).

Do they have legal authority to detain an offender or do they simply ask the perp to leave?

Whole 'nuther can of worms.

They can detain you if they see you committing a crime... Just like you can legally detain anybody you see committing a crime (not recommended). Security guards have NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY under the law.... They're just largely given a pass by most LEO's.

But, they may not use deadly force to detain you.

[Dropkick Murphy]

They can detain you if they see you committing a crime... Just like you can legally detain anybody you see committing a crime (not recommended). Security guards have NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY under the law.... They're just largely given a pass by most LEO's.

But, they may not use deadly force to detain you.

Police officers are the ONLY people that are allowed to detain you. Nobody else has the authority to detain you.

Security guards, and regular citizens have to ARREST you, or let you go, but they can not detain you.

[JayC]

Police officers are the ONLY people that are allowed to detain you. Nobody else has the authority to detain you.

Security guards, and regular citizens have to ARREST you, or let you go, but they can not detain you.

You're correct in this case you may use a citizen's arrest but not detain (again not recommended), I should have been more careful in the words I used... but there are cases where you may detain... such as shoplifting...

(a) A merchant, a merchant’s employee, or agent or a peace officer who has probable cause to believe that a person has committed or is attempting to commit the offense of theft, as defined in § 39-14-103, may detain that person on or off the premises of the mercantile establishment if the detention is done for any or all of the following purposes:

[enfield]

So say they start "patting" people down as they enter a Posted property, what do they do with the non-permit holder that is found to be carrying? . . . .

NOBODY ('ceptin' a cop) pats me down. I don't know where those hands have been, and I don't know the pervert doing it. Lay a hand on me without my permission and it constitutes assault and battery.

[tnhawk]

So say they start "patting" people down as they enter a Posted property, what do they do with the non-permit holder that is found to be carrying?

They can't suspend the permit of someone who doesn't have one! Guess this only applys to the legal permit carriers.

[Guest jackdm3]

NOBODY ('ceptin' a cop) pats me down. I don't know where those hands have been, and I don't know the pervert doing it. Lay a hand on me without my permission and it constitutes assault and battery.

Been to a concert in a big city lately?