How important is the 2A to your vote?

[Oh Shoot]

Bingo! Most of our laws are based on moral ideas. Murder law is based on the moral idea that you have the right to life. Robbery law is based on the morals that stealing is bad. Rape law is based on morals. The list goes on. We as a country started sharing the same morals for the most part. Even those founding fathers who people claim were not "Christian", still seemed to share the same moral code as "Christians."

When it comes to abortion and women screaming about their rights. I simply ask, "what about the rights of the person you are wanting to kill?" Normally, they will stammer on about how it's not a person, but I beg to differ. Science is only showing us more and more how it is a human (I mean, if you didn't kill it, it WOULD BE an alive human...)

Matthew

Oh, I dunno.

You could make an equally persuasive argument that laws that address basic human behavior like murder and theft are not morally based at all, since they go back much further back than even Hebrew law.

Every society that we know of had them, and similar ones like property ownership, marriage, etc, likely because they were proven to be the most practical way to keep a society intact AS a society, regardless of the governing style.

Indeed, the very first real civilization we know of, Sumer, had basic similar laws, and they didn't even have a culturally consistent set of Gods, but rather each village had their own. And yet even there, fairly consistent laws became universal.

In that sense, laws did not emerge from morality, but rather, morality emerged from the evolution of the best practical ways for individuals to behave in order to form a society that was safer than living as isolated smaller units.

- OS

[Mad_Squirrell]

In respect to abortion.My personal belief is that it is a human life at the point of conception . It is most definitely a human life when there is a heartbeat and therefore from that point on abortion should be criminalized.In no part of Roe Vs. Wade is abortion discussed or mentioned . Our laws were based on a moral code and a belief in a creator "GOD" the varying religious aspects put aside .

That said the 2nd amendment is the gaurdian of the bill of rights .And affords the people the ability to right a government that has gone wrong .You cannot be pro America and not support that amendment . The bill of rights, our Constitution is not a living document that changes with time it is an absolute.It should be read and interpreted with the modicum of thought with respect to the meaning of the language used in the time it was written. Any politician that takes a vow to uphold the Constitution(and all of them do when the are sworn in to office) and then votes in some fashion that circumvents it.2nd Amendment or any other .Should be tried for treason .

[Mad_Squirrell]

Oh, I dunno.

You could make an equally persuasive argument that laws that address basic human behavior like murder and theft are not morally based at all, since they go back much further back than even Hebrew law.

Every society that we know of had them, and similar ones like property ownership, marriage, etc, likely because they were proven to be the most practical way to keep a society intact AS a society, regardless of the governing style.

Indeed, the very first real civilization we know of, Sumer, had basic similar laws, and they didn't even have a culturally consistent set of Gods, but rather each village had their own. And yet even there, fairly consistent laws became universal.

In that sense, laws did not emerge from morality, but rather, morality emerged from the evolution of the best practical ways for individuals to behave in order to form a society that was safer than living as isolated smaller units.

- OS

Our constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson while he himself was not a Christian but a Deist respected and agreed with the Teachings of Christ and the ethical and moral code of the scriptures.He lived by them as well .So to say that it was just some ingrained humanistic respect for basic morals is just plain false .The influence of the Bible strongly fashioned who Thomas Jefferson was and the liberties that are afforded to man by God illustrated in the scriptures were what he was trying to convey in the writing of our sacred documents.The men that signed the Declaration of Independence were also driven by these principles .

[Guest HvyMtl]

My view on abortion is this: It should not be used as contraception, with the multiple alternatives out there. This said, I will not push my personal beliefs on another person in this area. I believe in minimalist government, and government intervention should be minimalist. I also believe the women should decide this issue, and not the men.

I also believe those who are anti-abortion should not have them. Example: The Catholic Church is opposed to abortion, arguably, even in the event it could save the life of the mother. Therefore, all Catholics should not have them... Yet the #1 religious group having abortions are Catholics... In other words, practice what you preach, and critically lower the number of them... Lead by example... not by noise...

Why abortion comes up in a "How important the 2a is to your vote" thread I will never know...

AS FOR THE TOPIC: The 2nd A was not important, until College, when I went through the history of WWII, and found it a deterrent to U.S. invasion, and when I went through Political Science classes, and learned the aspect of gun control as a control on society...and saw who limited guns... Then, I started to pay a little bit of attention. But, not until more recently, has it become a heavier issue. Not until I needed a firearm and did not have one on me. Then it became crucial. Now, I carry, and understand the responsibility there of. Yes, the firearm I carry is an absolute last resort to prevent violence / protect my life. But it is reassuring to know it is a possible last resort...and allowed under the Constitution.

Edited June 20, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Guest Boogieman]

Um, yeah. Lets get away from the religious talk and back on topic.

If a candidate does not support 2a rights then they do not get my support. Plain and simple.

[Oh Shoot]

Our constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson while he himself was not a Christian but a Deist respected and agreed with the Teachings of Christ and the ethical and moral code of the scriptures.He lived by them as well .So to say that it was just some ingrained humanistic respect for basic morals is just plain false .....

Reread my admittedly off topic response to Macville. The Constitution is not a criminal law book, and was not the subject of my retort.

I certainly did not claim "morals" are ingrained. Quite the opposite, they evolved as natural and logical proscriptions to allow people to live together more effectively - similar "morals", or "taboos/laws" evolved in most every culture long before the US, the Christian Bible, or even the Hebrew one. Our own Native Americans had their own tribal laws regarding murder, theft, marriage, personal property, and the like without the influence from any world religion. Too bad for them that first day a Christian set foot on North America.

Back on topic, a legislative candidate without a voting record is pretty much still an unknown quantity when it comes to his saying "I believe in the 2nd amendment."

The majority of our TN legislature has never really believed in it. Our departing governor doesn't believe in it. Bill Haslam, the next governor, doesn't fully believe in it.

And you know what? The majority of Tennesseans and the majority of Americans don't believe in it.

At best, all the above "sort of" believe in it. They believe it's limited. "Oh, sure everybody should be able to have a hunting rifle, but not an AK-47", or "sure, everybody should be able to have a gun at home, but not carry it in their pocket", etc.

So a pol has to weigh all that too. And it won't change as long as there are no term limits and the primary interest of a pol is to get reelected.

All that being said, short of voting for some obvious total loon, sure 2A is "important" to me, but a candidate's lips moving isn't a guarantee of anything, by a long shot.

Hell, Barack Hussein Obama says he believes in it (and in all fairness, has thus far done nothing to disprove that, something I can't really say for our own TN legislature).

- OS

[Guest HvyMtl]

+1 Oh Shoot, well said.

[Guest TnRebel]

Reread my admittedly off topic response to Macville. The Constitution is not a criminal law book, and was not the subject of my retort.

I certainly did not claim "morals" are ingrained. Quite the opposite, they evolved as natural and logical proscriptions to allow people to live together more effectively - similar "morals", or "taboos/laws" evolved in most every culture long before the US, the Christian Bible, or even the Hebrew one. Our own Native Americans had their own tribal laws regarding murder, theft, marriage, personal property, and the like without the influence from any world religion. Too bad for them that first day a Christian set foot on North America.

Back on topic, a legislative candidate without a voting record is pretty much still an unknown quantity when it comes to his saying "I believe in the 2nd amendment."

The majority of our TN legislature has never really believed in it. Our departing governor doesn't believe in it. Bill Haslam, the next governor, doesn't fully believe in it.

And you know what? The majority of Tennesseans and the majority of Americans don't believe in it.

At best, all the above "sort of" believe in it. They believe it's limited. "Oh, sure everybody should be able to have a hunting rifle, but not an AK-47", or "sure, everybody should be able to have a gun at home, but not carry it in their pocket", etc.

So a pol has to weigh all that too. And it won't change as long as there are no term limits and the primary interest of a pol is to get reelected.

All that being said, short of voting for some obvious total loon, sure 2A is "important" to me, but a candidate's lips moving isn't a guarantee of anything, by a long shot.

Hell, Barack Hussein Obama says he believes in it (and in all fairness, has thus far done nothing to disprove that, something I can't really say for our own TN legislature).

- OS

[Guest oldsmobile98]

The majority of our TN legislature has never really believed in it. Our departing governor doesn't believe in it. Bill Haslam, the next governor, doesn't fully believe in it.

And you know what? The majority of Tennesseans and the majority of Americans don't believe in it.

Nailed it. Thanks, OS, for reminding me to meet with my reps. I am gonna get one of them to introduce a permitless carry bill.

-----

Just to respond briefly to wjh2657, since he addressed me directly:

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Once one gamete hits the other gamete and you have a zygote, you have just participated in the miracle of life. And that life, even though it's small and weak, now has the same unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that the mom has.

The diff between abortion and carrying a gun is: you don't harm anyone by carrying a gun.

-----

Like others have said in this thread, if a candidate truly supports the Second Amendment, it's very likely that he also understands that the people are the masters and that the government is the servant, not the other way around.

[Mad_Squirrell]

Reread my admittedly off topic response to Macville. The Constitution is not a criminal law book, and was not the subject of my retort.

- OS

i see your point . I apologize for commenting on my misunderstanding of the intent of your post.

[Guest 1eyedwillie]

Pretty much a litmus test for me, but if a candidate tries limiting the 2nd amendment to hunting rights only, or skeet shooting or similar, they have missed the point. (no offense intended towards hunters or skeet shooters).

[JAB]

Our constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson..

A bit off topic but what the hell, I started the thread...

Unless I am mistaken, Thomas Jefferson was out of the country as the representative (Minister) to France during the Constitutional Convention when most of the Constitution was written. He did write a Constitution for the state of Virginia, I think. I've read that James Madison actually wrote much of the Bill of Rights and that much of the 'push' to come up with a Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation also came from Madison. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong.

As far as abortion, I believe that a person's body is his or her own. I have no more right to tell a woman that she has to act as a human incubator to a child to which she doesn't want to give birth than anyone else has to tell me that I can't get a tattoo or eat a Big Mac. When technology can come up with a mechanical incubator into which a zygote, fetus, etc. can be placed at any point along the gestational process then there might be an argument. Until that point, I see no argument that jibes with my idea of Liberty. That said, I could vote for a candidate who disagreed with me on abortion if I agreed with their stance on other issues - including the 2A. In fact, right now I am leaning toward voting for Ramsey for governor.

Edited June 24, 2010 by JAB

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Abortion inhibits that to the unborn.

I'm not challenging your beliefs, JAB, but I am pointing out a non-religious

contradiction to it. The person having the abortion is also aborting that ability.

If sex is the priority, and life isn't, society is lost, along with life, liberty, and the

pursuit of happiness. The female's role is being the incubator. If she minimalizes

her role in sex below that, the species suffers. That's just me and there is no

religion in it to argue against. The male human evolved enough to know this

over lower animals and shouldn't be trying to minimalizing life, either.

I, too, am for Ramsey for Governor

[DaveTN]

My main concern is the economy and jobs. I want to know what they intend to do about fixing our economy and restoring our manufacturing base. If our economy fails the issues like the Constitution, religion, and abortion simply will not matter.

It has been proven time after time that someone that supports gun control can easily be elected. So while it is an issue for me; I won’t waste a vote voting for someone that shares my firearms beliefs but can’t get elected.

Don’t forget… While the rest of us were looking at the issues Obama was elected by a group of people with a single goal in mind.

One thing’s for sure. If we keep the elections focused on the economy it won’t be Democrats or liberals getting elected.

[Guest faust921]

I'm not so big on litmus tests, but for me 2A is a "minimum price of admission".

I've heard TN politicians in debate not hesitate for a moment to answer if they were pro-life, and I'm sure not all of them had a 100% personal aversion to it, but as politicians they know where their support base is. None of them would have dared to say otherwise.

We should expect nothing less from our elected representatives. Don't tell me we don't have as much political might as the pro-life movement.

[Guest faust921]

My main concern is the economy and jobs. I want to know what they intend to do about fixing our economy and restoring our manufacturing base. If our economy fails the issues like the Constitution, religion, and abortion simply will not matter.

It has been proven time after time that someone that supports gun control can easily be elected. So while it is an issue for me; I won’t waste a vote voting for someone that shares my firearms beliefs but can’t get elected.

Don’t forget… While the rest of us were looking at the issues Obama was elected by a group of people with a single goal in mind.

One thing’s for sure. If we keep the elections focused on the economy it won’t be Democrats or liberals getting elected.

I would not hold my breath for the any government to "fix" any economy, unless you are talking about a government that "gets out of the way" of an economy trying to prosper. We have bottomed out on interest rates so there is money on the sidelines, what we don't have is demand, and due to a confidence issue for both consumers and investors. When government sends a clear signal that it is going to exercise control in spending, reduce tax burden on producers and reduce anti business laws and regulations, our mighty economy will start to inch forward.

[Guest clownsdd]

Here we go again:

You claim to be in favor of defending individual liberty yet you advocate government control of a woman's liberty. Abortion is a moral and religious issue and should not be not a political one. The truth is that it needs to be taken out of the religious/moral arena and some serious scientific and medical debate taken place. Are you you in favor of individual liberty so long as it fits your own religion or moral code? That isn't pro-liberty .

I am not pro-choice or pro-life, I just don't know enough about the issue outside of what I hear in church to able to make an intelligent stand. Churches don't dictate nor are they in any position to interpret the Constitution, they can't even agree among themselves as to what is right or wrong.

There too many people out there using religious and moral arguments against my carrying a gun. CCW is a legal issue not a moral issue. And I believe that the legality is the Second Amendment. I also believe all other rights need to be protected!

Glad you started this after my bashing for the "Memphis" shoot in MS.

[Guest clownsdd]

I have a spread sheet with the issues that I am concerned with at the top and the candidates listed to the side for all local, state and federal elections. I look at their platforms and agendas and put a check in the box if I agree or disagree. The one's with the most get my vote. One exception, if the 2A ain't checked yes I won't vote for them.

[Oh Shoot]

Just got Billy Boy Haslam's expensive looking flyer in the mail.

"2nd Amendment Rights"

"- As Mayor, he kept Knoxville the most gun-friendly big city in TN"

That's why we don't have park carry, and still have the old "no firearm carry except Army or Navy Pistol" statute on books.

I watched the City Council meetings on the park carry, and Billy Boy was strongly in favor of keeping the anti-park carry old ordinance.

-"Believes recent attempts by out-of-state interests to attack Tennessee gun shows were wrong".

Umm, that would be Bloomberg, and Billy as we all know was a member of his "Mayors Against Guns".

- "Life Membership in the NRA, and will veto restrictions on the 2nd Amendment"

Oh, okay, I guess I was wrong.

Wonder when he took that life membership out, right after he realized he'd better resign from Bloomberg's coalition?

Sheesh.

And he's gonna be our friggin' governor, too.

- OS

Edited July 2, 2010 by OhShoot

[leroy]

Just got Billy Boy Haslam's expensive looking flyer in the mail.

"2nd Amendment Rights"

"- As Mayor, he kept Knoxville the most gun-friendly big city in TN"

That's why we don't have park carry, and still have the old "no firearm carry except Army or Navy Pistol" statute on books.

I watched the City Council meetings on the park carry, and Billy Boy was strongly in favor of keeping the anti-park carry old ordinance.

-"Believes recent attempts by out-of-state interests to attack Tennessee gun shows were wrong".

Umm, that would be Bloomberg, and Billy as we all know was a member of his "Mayors Against Guns".

- "Life Membership in the NRA, and will veto restrictions on the 2nd Amendment"

Oh, okay, I guess I was wrong.

Wonder when he took that life membership out, right after he realized he'd better resign from Bloomberg's coalition?

Sheesh.

And he's gonna be our friggin' governor, too.

- OS

I fully agree. My problem with Haslam is his friends. See post here:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/22067-republican-gov-candidate-3.html#post292774

Check this post too: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/26282-cobbins-guilty-first-degree-murder-channon-2.html#post348657

Keep up the good work.

Kind regards.

Leroy

Edited July 2, 2010 by leroy
added link to post