Restaurant carry official! - Public Chapter 1009

[JayC]

Yeah we're both on the same page Also I don't know under the current wording you'd have to be convicted or even charged with a crime... If TNDOS believed you violated 1359 it seems they could suspend or revoke...

39-17-1352a3 and a6 are bad parts of the law and need to get the axe.

Also note, that they can suspend based off of 39-17-1352a6 as well which states:

Actually, the statute says:

"The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by its records or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:"

So, according to this statute, if you're caught carrying past a sign, you will lose your permit, unless their reporting system doesn't work.

Yes.

Leaving both our comments in for emphasis.

While I agree, and am one of the few who have disagreed with his permit being revoked, I don't see his situation as affecting carrying under 1359. Hell, HE didn't even break a carry law, but anyone charged with carrying past a sign HAS BROKEN A CARRY LAW, and as we've pointed out according the statutes, WILL have permit suspended (at the least) or permanently revoked.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but nobody much reacts to it. There COULD be a real push to enforce and convict under the new carry statute, perhaps incited by Rayburn, et al, and we may all well rue the day we got the "right" to carry in alcohol serving restaurants.

- OS

edit: matter of fact, I started a new thread about this in Handgun Carry to not further derail this one:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/41249-carry-past-sign-lose-your-handgun-carry-permit.html

[JayC]

Doesn't the law require the sign to be "plainly visible"? I seriously doubt this would be considered 'plainly visible'.

Me thinks we need to either ditch the sign business, or make it like Texas 30.06 so there is no question.

I agree, and if on the jury wouldn't convict unless it was on the door and next to the door at eye level... But, do you really want to take that chance?

I personally believe there is no political will to change 1359 right now... 1352a3 and a6... might be easier to change... they shouldn't be able to revoke or suspend a permit unless you're unable to qualify for the permit.

[andersmg]

Okay, pretend I am an idot, (not too far a stretch) so all this means I can legally carry now in restaurants that serve alcohol and bars? Or just restaurants?

I do not go to bars anyway, but just so I understand the law.

Thanks!

[Fallguy]

Okay, pretend I am an idot, (not too far a stretch) so all this means I can legally carry now in restaurants that serve alcohol and bars? Or just restaurants?

I do not go to bars anyway, but just so I understand the law.

Thanks!

As long as it is not posted (and you're not consuming)...you can carry anywhere alcohol is served, whether it is a restaurant, bar, bowling alley, museum, art gallery...well you get the point...

[Guest TNReb]

if on the jury wouldn't convict unless it was on the door and next to the door at eye level... But, do you really want to take that chance?

If you're talking about simply carrying past a sign, remember that is a Class B Misdemeanor punishable only by a fine. If you are not subject to incarceration, you don't get a jury trial.

[andersmg]

As long as it is not posted (and you're not consuming)...you can carry anywhere alcohol is served, whether it is a restaurant, bar, bowling alley, museum, art gallery...well you get the point...

Thanks!

[Guest HvyMtl]

Have the Anti's filed yet? Or are they thinking, like the media, the law goes into effect July 1st?

(Side note: I feel safer...)

[Chucktshoes]

I've been carrying in "serving" establishments since Saturday, lol. I guess I got a little ahead of things.

[Fallguy]

If you're talking about simply carrying past a sign, remember that is a Class B Misdemeanor punishable only by a fine. If you are not subject to incarceration, you don't get a jury trial.

Where does it say that you can't have a jury trial if there is no chance of incarsiartion?

As you point out it is a Class B Misdemeanor...and you can ask for a jury trial on a Class C Misdemeanor... http://www.tennessee.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2000/op/op192.pdf

In fact the opinion above quotes a court case that says you have a right to a jury trial where a fine of more the $50 or confiment may be impossed.

$500 is definetly more that $50

Edited June 10, 2010 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

I've been carrying in "serving" establishments since Saturday, lol. I guess I got a little ahead of things.

No you didn't.....as pointed out the effective date show June 4, 2010.

Just like some of us said...

[Fivestring63]

© A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i)

The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii)

The posting sign described in this subdivision

(3).

Be careful now. Just the circle and slash by itself is a legal posting.

[Guest TNReb]

Where does it say that you can't have a jury trial if there is no chance of incarsiartion?

As you point out it is a Class B Misdemeanor...and you can ask for a jury trial on a Class C Misdemeanor... http://www.tennessee.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2000/op/op192.pdf

In fact the opinion above quotes a court case that says you have a right to a jury trial where a fine of more the $50 or confiment may be impossed.

$500 is definetly more that $50

Fallguy--I stand corrected. You do have a right in Tennessee to have a jury set any fine in excess of $50. I was thinking about something like the charge of violation of implied consent, which carries no fine or incarceration. The courts have ruled there is no right to a jury trial on that. So if there is a Class C Misdemeanor that carries no jail time and a maximum fine of $50, there is no right to a jury trial on that. But you would have a right to a jury on this offense due to the size of the fine. Nice catch!

[Fallguy]

Fallguy--I stand corrected. You do have a right in Tennessee to have a jury set any fine in excess of $50. I was thinking about something like the charge of violation of implied consent, which carries no fine or incarceration. The courts have ruled there is no right to a jury trial on that. So if there is a Class C Misdemeanor that carries no jail time and a maximum fine of $50, there is no right to a jury trial on that. But you would have a right to a jury on this offense due to the size of the fine. Nice catch!

Came across that a while back and has always stuck with me for some reason.

[Steelharp]

© A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i)

The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle

; or

(ii)

The posting sign described in this subdivision

(3).

Be careful now.

Just the circle and slash by itself is a legal posting.

Which is keeping me from getting all feely excited about this. You guys realize how easy it is for places now to ban us? Much easier than before. Sorry; suck factor = HIGH.

[Fallguy]

Which is keeping me from getting all feely excited about this. You guys realize how easy it is for places now to ban us? Much easier than before. Sorry; suck factor = HIGH.

Why does everyone say it is easier for a place to post now?

The type of sign to use may be simplier....but the actually act of posting is not.

If a place truly wanted to legally post I think they would have before just as much as they would now.

I admit I am only going by the places in my area....but I don't see a bunch of new places posting now, just because the sign itself is less complicated.

[Mike.357]

if you really want to beat a sign just cut through the back door into the kitchen,

Those doors are not posted and I guarantee no one working will stop you.

[redstategunnut]

If you were walking around handing out $50 bills, someone would complain that you weren't handing out $100 bills.

[Steelharp]

Why does everyone say it is easier for a place to post now?

The type of sign to use may be simplier....but the actually act of posting is not.

My view is that it's far easier for the owner to go on the 'net, download a circle/slash sign, print it up, and have it in the establishment before opening the next day. Proper posting. The verbage type sign will require a bit more effort, and human nature would keep some from fooling with it.

As far as the $50/$100 comment, I'll have one of each, please...

[Oh Shoot]

My view is that it's far easier for the owner to go on the 'net, download a circle/slash sign, print it up, and have it in the establishment before opening the next day. Proper posting. The verbage type sign will require a bit more effort, and human nature would keep some from fooling with it....

Yeah, the little international signs are at hardware stores, Home Depot, etc.

I'm still thinking there might be a move instigated by Rayburn and similar ilk to get them distributed through TN Restaurant Association or some other biz groups.

- OS

[kckndrgn]

Well the wife and I got a chance to "celebrate" the new law last night. Went to Bahama Breeze in Memphis. So nice to be legal again

[TnEngineer]

Please tell me one more time:

I can carry in a resturant that serves alcohol as well as a "bar"?

Not being a lawyer, reading over the prior posting showing the new law, I get lost in it, if you know what I mean.

All this time, I was under the impression that the new law would allow carry ONLY in restaurants that serve alcohol and NOT "bars".

I don't mean to muddy the waters and, thanks!

[walton6467]

To my knowledge, TN law does not differentiate between a restaurant that serves alcohol and a bar. Its a business that SERVES alcohol for consumption onsite. I believe the state law states that any business with a liquor license to serve must derive more than 50% of their business from the sale of food. Otherwise there is a small token fine to pay. So as far as the state is concerned, there is on difference between O'Charleys and some roadside honky tonk.

[Fallguy]

if you really want to beat a sign just cut through the back door into the kitchen,

Those doors are not posted and I guarantee no one working will stop you.

Except those entracnes probably wouldn't be considered "generally used by the public"

Yeah, the little international signs are at hardware stores, Home Depot, etc.

I'm still thinking there might be a move instigated by Rayburn and similar ilk to get them distributed through TN Restaurant Association or some other biz groups.

- OS

Wow....none of the places like hardware stores etc... have the international symbol around here. Like I was saying...I only know of one place like that that I have ever been too.

Guess I need to get out more, huh?...lol

Please tell me one more time:

I can carry in a resturant that serves alcohol as well as a "bar"?

Not being a lawyer, reading over the prior posting showing the new law, I get lost in it, if you know what I mean.

All this time, I was under the impression that the new law would allow carry ONLY in restaurants that serve alcohol and NOT "bars".

I don't mean to muddy the waters and, thanks!

There was a law that prohibited carry where alcohol is served...now theres is not. The law was repealed, done away with...no longer exsist. So it doesn't matter what the place is that serves alcohol, you can carry there so long as it's not posted.

[tnhawk]

Well the wife and I got a chance to "celebrate" the new law last night. Went to Bahama Breeze in Memphis. So nice to be legal again

Good idea. I'm going there for lunch.

[Falcon1]

All this time, I was under the impression that the new law would allow carry ONLY in restaurants that serve alcohol and NOT "bars".

To my knowledge, TN law does not differentiate between a restaurant that serves alcohol and a bar. Its a business that SERVES alcohol for consumption onsite. I believe the state law states that any business with a liquor license to serve must derive more than 50% of their business from the sale of food. Otherwise there is a small token fine to pay. So as far as the state is concerned, there is on difference between O'Charleys and some roadside honky tonk.

Correct on no differentiation as of now. Did anyone notice, however, that Curry Todd this session was also sponsoring a law that would create a separate class of license for those who derive most of their income from beverage sales alone? I think the figure was ten or fifteen percent only from food. If that law passed/passes, I could see a re-visit in the future that might aim to strip the "fifteen-percenters" out of the legal carry locations.