Israel Raids Activist Flotilla Attempting to Run Blockade

[E4 No More]

Ok, this was posted when I was replying so I will address it. I was making the factual claim that the civilians on the boat didn't have firearms in their possession before the boat was stormed by the IDF. Poles and metal rods are not firearms. I wonder why the Israeli felt threatened by people holding poles and metal rods? Furthermore, after reading it again I don't see how you missed the point.

Concerning the witness factor. Bad choice of a word on my part, I guess. For clarification, though I don't see how you could not have understood the point, I was referring to the fact that I have witnessed a person who was under the PLO tell me what they thought of the PLO when they were living in Palestine. Which was a response to another poster telling me to talk with someone who was under PLO control. Which I have done and was trying offer a general understanding of that person's perspective of how his homeland is being run by the PLO.

That is the best you can dissect my statements to prove a point? Kinda weak, don't you think?

Look again!

Under "FACT" you posted, "The only weapons used against the Israeli's were those commandeered by the civilians from the IDF soldiers that had stormed the ship," while the video clearly showed the Israelis being struck with metal poles and rods/bars. If you don't think metal poles and rods are weapons why don't you slide down a rope while I whack you with said objects and see if that changes your opinion? I submit that if someone were approaching you with a tire-tool you would draw and fire making you an incredible hypocrite as well as an antisemitic.

[Smith]

I know I said I was done with this thread. But, I will not sit idle and be called a liar. You want to call me a fool, fine. I can handle that. But I have not lied. You have no idea how I have spent my time researching. That claim that I am lying is unjustified and reprehensible. If you can provide proof of otherwise, I would like to see it.

Just because I have come to a different conclusion than is socially or politically accepted by this board doesn't mean I haven't studied this issue. This is another example of attacking the person and not the argument. As for the Palestinians not being middle-eastern, can you please provide what the geographical location of their origination is? Refugees from where? It would help your argument tremendously. As for them being squatters in a land no one wanted, they squatted there for over a 1,000 years before any effort by the Jews were made to make Palestine their “homeland.†IMO, they have a right to live in the region as well as fight for the right to live in the region, whether they win or lose.

Please share the portions of the Palestinian history that dispels the "facts" I have claimed in this thread. Before doing so, please print the thread and make sure have outlined the "facts" that you seemed to think I have made concerning the Palestinians at all. I ask this because I am not sure of the "facts" you claim I have made concerning the Palestinians in this thread.

Contrary to what you believe, I am not a supporter of Nazism and/or the Third Reich. I don't like Hitler or what he stood for. But, what would be the point of going into that, you wouldn't believe me anyway. Maybe, you should spend sometime reading about the history of the Zionism Movement. It is beneficial to know both sides of the argument before drawing any conclusions.

Just a quick search of the least historical authoritative source Wikipedia show your error.

Like the Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Moroccans, and most other people today commonly called Arabs, the Palestinians are an Arab people in linguistic and cultural affiliation — that is, in ethnic identity. However, like most other peoples today called Arabs, the Palestinians descend from the pre-existing ancient inhabitants of their respective region and those who have come to settle it throughout history; a matter on which genetic studies described below has begun to shed some light.[84]

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine..."

[85]

Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, explains:

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland: Jebusites, Canaanites,

Philistines

from

Crete

, Anatolian and

Lydian

Greeks,

Hebrews

,

Amorites

,

Edomites

,

Nabateans

,

Arameans

,

Romans

, Arabs, and European

crusaders

, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as

Ancient Egyptians

,

Hittites

,

Persians

,

Babylonians

, and

Mongols

, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity—albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and

Arabic culture

."

[86]

Much of the local Palestinian population in Nablus is believed to be descended from Samaritans who converted to Islam.[87] Even today, certain Nabulsi surnames including Muslimani, Yaish, and Shakshir among others, are associated with a Samaritan origin.[87]

BTW - Although I have not personally been to Israel or the Middle East proper, my family has extensive time in Iraq (Kurdistan), and Israel. I also have friends who have been in Jordan for the last 20 years. I have studied Biblical history and Israeli history in more depth than I care to comment and I can tell you that I have either wasted one degree and a masters and the last 15 years of my life or you are absolutely 100% wrong.

[E4 No More]

Just a quick search of the least historical authoritative source Wikipedia show your error.

BTW - Although I have not personally been to Israel or the Middle East proper, my family has extensive time in Iraq (Kurdistan), and Israel. I also have friends who have been in Jordan for the last 20 years. I have studied Biblical history and Israeli history in more depth than I care to comment and I can tell you that I have either wasted one degree and a masters and the last 15 years of my life or you are absolutely 100% wrong.

There isn't an emoticon that demonstrates my feelings towards this last statement: however, if there was you'd get 100% kick out of it!

[Smith]

"gts is a fool and a liar."

GENTLEMEN, PLEASE DO NOT STOOP TO PERSONAL ATTACKS. IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE, AND IRRITATES THE FORUM OFFICERS...

Besides, it kills your argument, right off the bat...

It is not a personal attack if and when it is true. I would say the same about anyone who spouted other racist, ignorant, and fact-less garbage in an effort to culturally attack an entire race of people. There can be no argument with lies. An argument implies two parties trying to work towards truth by reasoning facts. gts has spouted nothing in the way of facts, thus there can be no argument. There is only truth and the pursuit thereof.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Keep it civil in my thread, please.

[Guest gts]

It is not a personal attack if and when it is true. I would say the same about anyone who spouted other racist, ignorant, and fact-less garbage in an effort to culturally attack an entire race of people. There can be no argument with lies. An argument implies two parties trying to work towards truth by reasoning facts. gts has spouted nothing in the way of facts, thus there can be no argument. There is only truth and the pursuit thereof.

And what did I say that was racist in this thread. Don't dig up old dirt either, please share the racist comment I made in this thread. Also, would you mind addressing the questions I posed for you. I would like to know where are the Palestinians are from, if they are not middleieastern, as you have claimed they're not?

[Smith]

And what did I say that was racist in this thread. Don't dig up old dirt either, please share the racist comment I made in this thread. Also, would you mind addressing the questions I posed for you. I would like to know where are the Palestinians are from, if they are not middleieastern, as you have claimed they're not?

Middle Eastern and Arab are not the same thing any more than saying American is Caucasian.

Sorry, Suntzu. He lit my fire.

[Guest gts]

Look again!

Under "FACT" you posted, "The only weapons used against the Israeli's were those commandeered by the civilians from the IDF soldiers that had stormed the ship," while the video clearly showed the Israelis being struck with metal poles and rods/bars. If you don't think metal poles and rods are weapons why don't you slide down a rope while I whack you with said objects and see if that changes your opinion? I submit that if someone were approaching you with a tire-tool you would draw and fire making you an incredible hypocrite as well as an antisemitic.

Got me there didn't you. I assumed that it would be understood that I was referring to firearms since noted that in the previous sentence...details, more attention to details. Also, I clarified this position already.

If armed soldiers were attacking my ship and all I had was a pole, I would use it for self-defense.

I am not anti-semitic. To be anti-semitic you have to be anti-the sons of Shem(son of Noah), which is what the word semite derives from. But the Israelis occupying the state of Israel are not sons of Shem and therefore cannot be considered semites. But, that is not the argument that is taking place in this thread. Amazing, so many have resorted to insults. The insult is the last resort of an exhausted mind.

Edited June 1, 2010 by gts
spelling

[Capbyrd]

GTS,

I have a serious question for you.

What hit the pentagon on September 11th?

[Guest gts]

Just a quick search of the least historical authoritative source Wikipedia show your error.

BTW - Although I have not personally been to Israel or the Middle East proper, my family has extensive time in Iraq (Kurdistan), and Israel. I also have friends who have been in Jordan for the last 20 years. I have studied Biblical history and Israeli history in more depth than I care to comment and I can tell you that I have either wasted one degree and a masters and the last 15 years of my life or you are absolutely 100% wrong.

Why did you leave out the first part of the article?

The Palestinian people, (Arabic: , ash-sha`b al-filasTīni) also referred to as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: , al-filasTīnīyyūn; Arabic: ,al-`Arab al-filasTīnīyyūn), are an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. The total Palestinian population is estimated at approximately 12 million, roughly less than half continuing to live within the boundaries of what was Mandate Palestine, an area encompassing Israel proper, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[11] In this combined area, as of 2009, they constitute 49% of all inhabitants,[12] some of whom are internally displaced. The remainder, over half of all Palestinians, comprise what is known as the Palestinian diaspora, of whom more than half are stateless refugees, lacking citizenship in any country.[13] Of the diaspora, about 1.9 million live in neighboring Jordan,[14] one and a half million between Syria and Lebanon, a quarter million in Saudi Arabia, while Chile's half a million are the largest concentration outside the Arab world.

You're the one who said they weren't middle-eastern. I don't recall claiming they were Arabs.

[Smith]

Why did you leave out the first part of the article?

You're the one who said they weren't middle-eastern. I don't recall claiming they were Arabs.

Because that is the current contextual understanding of who they are. However, it is not in fact who they are ethnically or otherwise which was the point. I'm starting to see how you draw conclusions and it all makes sense.

You are correct I misused "from the the middle east" when my intention was the specific land called Israel.

[SHbicycle]

So, I am done with this thread.

Whats up

[Guest gts]

GTS,

I have a serious question for you.

What hit the pentagon on September 11th?

Seriously? Seems to me as though you not being to serious with a question like that.

[Guest gts]

You are correct I misused "from the the middle east" when my intention was the specific land called Israel.

But is ok to run me through the ringer when I make a contextual mistake? And I am the hypocrite? Whatever.

[Raoul]

Originally Posted by greenego

They were told to dock and let Israel search the ship for weapons. If none found they could have gone on. There was either weapons on this ship or they were trying to cause an incident.

Activists send new boat to challenge Israel's Gaza blockade day after raid kills 9 | StarTribune.com

By AMY TEIBEL , Associated Press

Last update: June 1, 2010 - 5:51 AM

JERUSALEM - Pro-Palestinian activists said Tuesday they had sent another boat to challenge the Gaza blockade as Israel faced outrage abroad and questions at home over its botched raid on an aid flotilla in international waters that ended with soldiers killing nine activists.

The raid provoked the most ferocious international condemnation of Israel since its war with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip a year and a half ago and appeared likely to increase pressure to end its blockade that has deepened the poverty of the 1.5 million Palestinians living in the strip. The U.N. Security Council condemned the "acts" that resulted in the deaths and called for an impartial investigation.

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said another cargo boat was off the coast of Italy en route to Gaza. A second boat carrying about three dozen passengers is expected to join it, Berlin said. She said the two boats would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

"This initiative is not going to stop," she said from the group's base in Cyprus. "We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They're going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats."

Protests have erupted in a number of Muslim countries including Turkey, which unofficially supported the flotilla, Indonesia and Malaysia, where a Palestinian man slashed himself outside the American Embassy.

Within Israel, the raid sparked intense debate over why the military operation went awry.

Israel sent commandos onto the six ships carrying nearly 700 activists after mission organizers ignored the government's weeks-long call to bring the cargo to an Israeli port, where it would be inspected and transferred to Gaza. In most cases, the passengers quickly surrendered. But on the largest ship, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara, the forces encountered resistance.

Cool. Thanks!

Isn't it amazing how events in the Middle East cause problems worldwide? Even on TGO.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Raoul

[Guest SUNTZU]

This place is awesome.

[Smith]

But is ok to run me through the ringer when I make a contextual mistake? And I am the hypocrite? Whatever.

Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it. A hypocrite says one thing and does another. You are far from being a hypocrite as far as I can tell.

You're getting run through the "ringer" because you are espousing the same racist and fact-less diatribe that led, not that long ago, to the extermination of nearly 6 million Jews. Believe it or not most German's didn't see it as racist or fact-less either, but it is clear in hindsight exactly what was the truth. This is not new or untested theory or ideology you are espousing. It is easy to spot and easier still to discredit. If you truly are concerned with history and the study of it I encourage you to study actual history and not that written by those who wish to use it for their own purposes.

[Guest gts]

Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it. A hypocrite says one thing and does another. You are far from being a hypocrite as far as I can tell.

You're getting run through the "ringer" because you are espousing the same racist and fact-less diatribe that led, not that long ago, to the extermination of nearly 6 million Jews. Believe it or not most German's didn't see it as racist or fact-less either, but it is clear in hindsight exactly what was the truth. This is not new or untested theory or ideology you are espousing. It is easy to spot and easier still to discredit. If you truly are concerned with history and the study of it I encourage you to study actual history and not that written by those who wish to use it for their own purposes.

Sorry, someone called me a hypocrite and I mistook for you. It's kinda of hard to keep up with all the bombardment. You're right, nothing new to the world at all. But we are not having race argument here. This was a geo-political argument. I ask you earlier, and I'll ask you again, to please show me where in this thread I made a racist argument. You keep calling me racist, but I have not stated anything racist, and if I have, I would like it to be pointed out. You are calling me racist because you have nothing else to come back with. What fact-less, racist statement have I made? There are statements that I have conceded, of which, were typing errors or misunderstandings by the reader because I wasn't detailed enough. And I have offered clarification in return.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Sorry, someone called me hypocrite and I mistook for you. It's kinda of hard to keep up with all the bombardment. You right, nothing new to the world at all. But we are not having race argument here. This was a geo-political argument. I ask you earlier, and I'll ask you again, to please show me where in this thread I made a racist argument. You keep calling me racist, but I have no stated anything racist, and if I have, I would like it to be pointed out. You are calling me racist because you have nothing else to come back with. What fact-less, racist statement have I made? There are statements that I have conceded, of which, were typing errors or misunderstandings by the reader because I wasn't detailed enough. And I have offered clarification in return.

How about you take it to PM's.

[towerclimber37]

How about you take it to PM's.

I agree...you guys are interfering with my digestion. Everyone here knows both your opinions on the event, some believe one way, some believe the other and still others believe that someone should club GTS like a baby seal.

that's beside the point.

let someone else have a go with their opinions, guys.

[Guest gts]

How about you take it to PM's.

Would be more than willing to, SUNTZU. But my PM is either broken or has been disabled. I tried to PM a member the other day a couple of times and nothing happened. I just assumed that option is not allowed for my account.

[E4 No More]

Got me there didn't you. I assumed that it would be understood that I was referring to firearms since noted that in the previous sentence...details, more attention to details. Also, I clarified this position already.

If armed soldiers were attacking my ship and all I had was a pole, I would use it for self-defense.

I am not anti-semitic. To be anti-semitic you have to be anti-the sons of Shem(son of Noah), which is what the word semite derives from. But the Israelis occupying the state of Israel are not sons of Shem and therefore cannot be considered semites. But, that is not the argument that is taking place in this thread. Amazing, so many have resorted to insults. The insult is the last resort of an exhausted mind.

You must have flunked english class, because if you had not you would have started a new paragraph to separate firearms from other weapons.

Go to school and learn something.

an·ti-Sem·ite

   /ˌæntiˈsɛmaɪt, ˌæntaɪ- or, especially Brit., -ˈsimaɪt/ Show Spelled[an-tee-sem-ahyt, an-tahy- or, especially Brit., -see-mahyt] Show IPA

–noun a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.

[Guest HvyMtl]

IDF: Global Jihad on flotilla

Since when are bullet proof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles considered "humanitarian aid?"

Basically put, they were warned, repeatedly, through several weeks, if not months of official communications. They were advised they would be allowed to go to Gaza, after a weapons search at port. They refused, and then attacked a boarding party. I think they got what they deserved...

Now, Israel seems to think around 50 "activists" are actually terrorists...

This is not going to go well...

Edited June 2, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Smith]

IDF: Global Jihad on flotilla

Since when is bullet proof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles considered "humanitarian aid?"

Basically put, they were warned, repeatedly, through several weeks, if not months of official communications. They were advised they would be allowed to go to Gaza, after a weapons search at port. They refused, and then attacked a boarding party. I think they got what they deserved...

Now, Israel seems to think around 50 "activists" are actually terrorists...

This is not going to go well...

I'm actually amazed and confused why the boarded with paintball guns. Yes, i know they had their pistols, but why would they go in with paintball guns? I think it show a lot of restraint and yet not their usually clever tactics.

[Guest gts]

You must have flunked english class, because if you had not you would have started a new paragraph to separate firearms from other weapons.

Go to school and learn something.

an·ti-Sem·ite

   /ˌæntiˈsɛmaɪt, ˌæntaɪ- or, especially Brit., -ˈsimaɪt/ Show Spelled[an-tee-sem-ahyt, an-tahy- or, especially Brit., -see-mahyt] Show IPA

–noun a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.

I wasn't separating firearms from other weapons in the post you refer to. My reference to weapons in the paragraph was to firearms. Hence, there was no need for a new paragraph. I have explained this more than once in this thread.

As for the definition...look, I am not the idiot you think I am. I have an explanation for my understanding of what a semitic person is. Yet, I am sure you don't care to hear it so I won't share it.

I am not going to compare education levels with you or anyone else. I have a degree and graduated at the top of my class with honors. But, in this thread, all of that is irrelevant. There is a fundamental disagreement based on global political views. I think Israel was wrong. Not because of the primary race of their people, but because of the actions and orders of their leaders. It's an opinion that differs from most others in the community. That's all. So you don't like my opinion and I don't like yours. But I am not the one resorting to name calling, spiteful insults or other childish antics. Nor did I state anything racist or hateful. I posted a link that shows some stats and a different point of view than is usually presented by the typical MSM.

I didn't make this thread a racial issue. Looking back at this thread and reviewing its contents, it is clear that it was not made a racial issue by me. But, that obviously doesn't matter. It is easier for some to call me a fool, a liar, and a racist rather than just address the issue, dispel what I said, or hell, even agree to disagree for that matter.

One last thing, I have received two infractions. One was justified, the other was for my views. That one costs me a 30 day ban. Since my return from exile, I have made it a point to not make race an issue at all. I don't want to get banned again. I know that there are those who are just waiting for me to slip up and give them a reason. I am gun owner and a Tennessean. I like this board because it is a place where I share two things, that matter greatly to me, in common with the others, MY STATE and MY GUNS. Everything else is just ideologies and opinions, and it is okay, IMO, not to agree with everyone on every little detail. I enjoy reading the perspective the others have. Some I agree with, others I don't. But, I do not go out of my way to slander or insult anyone. If I have done so, directly or indirectly, I apologize. But, for my beliefs I don't apologize, nor would I expect anyone else to be apologetic for theirs.