Somewhat shocked

[mk19]

So i went to an HCP class close to a month ago, the class was great and the instructor knew his stuff. What surprised me were the people in the class. Most of them had Zero experience with pistols or maybe even firearms and the rest had just bought their first handgun. That made me really uncomfortable, my opinion of someone who gets to carry is a person who knows at least a decent amount about shooting pistols and has some experience, not someone who barely knows how how to hold a pistol. Eitherway I might end up taking the class again, as i did not have time to go and apply for the HCP. Since i've been pretty much out of Tn trying to get a DOD contract to go over seas, and may not make it back within the 6 months. End of rant.

[Guest MrChicken]

Aside from getting into a discussion over rights...

That is the purpose of the class, to get the inexperienced and uninformed to a basic level of saefty, skill and understanding.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If they will go to the range and continue learning how to use it, we will all be better

for it. Ya gotta start sometime

[Fallguy]

Aside from getting into a discussion over rights...

That is the purpose of the class, to get the inexperienced and uninformed to a basic level of saefty, skill and understanding.

+1

IMO the class is really supposed to be for those that have never seen a gun.

Because otherwise I don't think you should need a permit from the state to carry.

[Bubba0031]

I have said in previous posts that I think persons with no experience should take a basic handgun course prior to taking the HCP class. I think the HCP class should be devoted to legal and safe carry as opposed to basic operation. I also don't think one and done is adquate. Anyone with a HCP needs to take additional classes and also pratice with the weapon of his or her choice.

[daddyo]

Unfortunately, there is not an intelligence test required to obtain a HCP in TN. But I'm curious; how much knowledge about shooting do you consider "a decent amount"?

When I took my HCP class over 12 years ago, I knew very little about firearms except what my dad had taught me when I was little, which was basically to never point a gun at anything you didn't intend to destroy. So I made it a point to listen to everything the instructor said, which gave me the basics to build on. I have since read almost everything I can get my hands on since then and practice as often as time and money will allow.

From what I've learned in the past couple of years, there are some LEOs who really shouldn't be carrying a firearm as they know so little about them.

[Guest MrChicken]

I have said in previous posts that I think persons with no experience should take a basic handgun course prior to taking the HCP class. I think the HCP class should be devoted to legal and safe carry as opposed to basic operation. I also don't think one and done is adquate. Anyone with a HCP needs to take additional classes and also pratice with the weapon of his or her choice.

If you didnt get that from your class, you went to the wrong place. Basic operation is part of safety, understanding how a thing works makes it safer for you to use.

The sad truth is that few people go beyond the class for the permit in regards to formal training.

[saintsfanbrian]

my opinion of someone who gets to carry is a person who knows at least a decent amount about shooting pistols and has some experience, not someone who barely knows how how to hold a pistol.

That's the great thing about this country. We can all have opinions.

It is my understanding that the framers of the Constitution provided the 2nd amendment to ALL people not just those with a decent amount about shooting pistols.

Maybe some of the people had never held a pistol but could shoot the wings off a gnat at 100 yards with a .22?

The class is to provide a basic understanding of the LAWS involved in carrying a firearm. It also assures the instructor that the person applying can hit the broad side of the barn when necessary.

Notice there is no "expert" on the range portion only 48 to 50 shots sent down range.

Should you continue to train after the class? Certainly but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to obtain a permit if you didn't train before.

Should you have a basic understanding of pistols/revolvers? Of course but that shouldn't mean you are not allowed to obtain a permit if you can pass the class.

Enjoy your carry permit if/when you get it.

[gnmwilliams]

I understand what you're saying. But I also agree that you have to start somewhere. However, I don't think the instructor should let people even touch their weapons until they can recite the basic laws of hangun safety. There was a gentleman in my class that had a Beretta Tomcat and couldn't figure out how to even check the chamber and ended up looking down the barrel and covering the entire class before the instructor was able to take it from him. So yeah, I feel ya on the being nervous part.

[Guest MrChicken]

I understand what you're saying. But I also agree that you have to start somewhere. However, I don't think the instructor should let people even touch their weapons until they can recite the basic laws of hangun safety. There was a gentleman in my class that had a Beretta Tomcat and couldn't figure out how to even check the chamber and ended up looking down the barrel and covering the entire class before the instructor was able to take it from him. So yeah, I feel ya on the being nervous part.

You went to the wrong school... Most people think the class is taught about the same everywhere, but that just isnt so. Like everything else, there are going to be some places that are better or worse than others.

I can say from experience you can do everything you can in the classroom correctly, but when they get a pistol in hand some people forget everything they learned.

That's why there are classes and instructors, we have the opportunity to get that corrected on the range under supervison.

[Guest rsgillmd]

So i went to an HCP class close to a month ago, the class was great and the instructor knew his stuff. What surprised me were the people in the class. Most of them had Zero experience with pistols or maybe even firearms and the rest had just bought their first handgun. That made me really uncomfortable, my opinion of someone who gets to carry is a person who knows at least a decent amount about shooting pistols and has some experience, not someone who barely knows how how to hold a pistol. Eitherway I might end up taking the class again, as i did not have time to go and apply for the HCP. Since i've been pretty much out of Tn trying to get a DOD contract to go over seas, and may not make it back within the 6 months. End of rant.

MK19, I have to humbly disagree with you. My uncle very briefly showed me how to shoot a shotgun in India in the early 80s. I was 6 or 7 at the the time. He taught me never to point a gun at anyone unless I intended to kill them because it is loaded until I check it.

I took the HCP course out of curiosity and the advice of colleagues. I had already learned half of the basic safety rules as a kid, and the other two were common sense.

I don't know what class you took. I took my class at Range Master in Memphis at the recommendation of my colleague. I knew nothing else about handling a handgun other than what I had learned in India. I knew the basic physics of bullets from EMS classes/experience. Although most of the class had some experience, I was not alone. The instructors were patient and covered all the basic safety rules as well as basic operation of handguns. We practiced with plastic guns before even touching a real gun. I think anyone who paid attention in the class came out being able to handle a handgun safely.

Do people need further training? Sure. It's a basic level class. I know that having been through it, and the instructors also stressed it. Now that I've gotten my accessories I've signed up for their level 2 class in June, and intend to go through at least their level 3 class.

Lets put this in a different perspective. I'm an anesthesiologist. There are several procedures I am trained to perform that can cause serious harm to the patient. However, you can only read/watch videos about these procedures and practice on dummies (when available) so much. Contrary to what you may read in the lay press: dummies/simulators, while useful, are no substitute for the real thing. Eventually you have to attempt the procedures under supervision/guidance on a real patient. Same goes for handguns. Eventually you have to shoot the real thing.

Part of being a physician is knowing your limitations. That concept carries over to non-medical fields also. Having taken the HCP class I am clear on the limitations of the training I've received. Will some people take the HCP class and not go further? Yes. But I think most will seek further training. At a minimum, I would rather have someone who knows the basic safety rules carrying on the street, than someone who does not know those rules.

[Guest peacexxl]

I had ZERO (0) experience with handguns when I decided to take it up and no one to teach me. I chose to do a ton of research online and in gunshops before I bought one. Then my wife and I took a basic and intermediate course at RUSA before we took the HCP course.

This is all because I am mildly obsessive about knowledge and being prepared before I jump into anything.

The truth is, though, I had every right to walk in and take the HCP course first and choose to learn later if I wanted. I think while we may be bothered by the choice that some make with regard to remaining ignorant or getting the minimal knowledge required to pass the course, we can't really say that we support 2a rights for all and then decide that we don't want people carrying who don't know as much as we do. It starts to ring hollow at some point.

You just have to hope for the best and watch your own 6 for badguys and idiots.

Edited May 26, 2010 by peacexxl

[Guest MrChicken]

It's just the way we are as people.

How many people took more than one drivers education class?

When they got the DL did they know everything and have a high level of skill of behind the wheel?

Have you taken a class on using a chain saw, circular saw, or table saw? Those are pretty dangerous too.

How many that carry a knife have had a knife class?

[Guest ADAM]

I knew very little about firearms except what my dad had taught me when I was little, which was basically to never point a gun at anything you didn't intend to destroy. .

this sums it all up in one quick statement.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi mk19

On the possibility of your training certificate going out of date before you can apply for HCP-- I'm a grand procrastinator, and after I took my course I let the certificate go out of date. Asked the school if I should re-take the course, and the instructor kindly made me another certificate with a later date. My cert wasn't radically out of date, just slightly.

Dunno whether it was some heinous crime for the instructor to make a new-dated cert with all info the same except the date. Dunno if that would be something you could expect to get done, but it wouldn't hurt talking to your training place, explain the situation, and see if they can help you out.

I took course and got HCP at least 10 years ago. Had shot rifles as a country boy, but hadn't ever shot a pistol and hadn't shot any kind of gun for at least 30 years.

Had been thinking about getting a self-defense pistol fer awhile, but finally decided because of a violent crazy redneck-from-hell neighbor. He hadn't yet done anything bad enough to keep him in jail, but he was unhinged enough that it wouldn't have been a surprise to find him on my porch wielding a gun or baseball bat. Didn't want to be a de facto crime statistic.

AFAIK there were no gun courses in my area except the HCP courses and the hunter safety courses. Me & wife took the HCP course with rented guns to learn at least a little shinola about safe operation before getting a gun. Wasn't definitely planning to get an HCP one way or t'other.

Wife really enjoyed the course and did well, and I drug her out to the range a few times subsequently, but she didn't turn out long-term interested. She did well enough shooting that she could probably hit a home-invader point-blank range if need be.

I had expected after-course pistol practice for proficiency to be a chore, but it turned out a lot of fun, so eventually became a habitual carry concealed feller and 'gun nut' recreational target shooter as a side-effect of the initial paranoia about my redneck-from-hell crazy neighbor who eventually moved away (thank goodness).

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lester Weevils
spelling

[PC7]

I have the same concerns as you do mk19, but I can also see the point about introducing people to pistol carry with the HCP class. I have an answer for both: I think the shooting portion of the class should be what the THP or TBI does for their pistol qualification. If one can show up to a HCP class and not know how to load their pistol and still pass the qualification course, more power to them!

With this increased qualification standard, I think HCP holder's could push for and justify carry everywhere off-duty LEO's are allowed to carry. Just my 2 cents....

[Guest Randy]

I had the same thoughts about some of the people in the class i took a month ago.

But on retrospect it is not that they are in the class with out knowledge on hand guns, but that ( which we have seen in walmart ) there are people out there that really should not be breeding let alone have access to a handgun. The world is a scary place, and late night visits to most walmarts will confirm this. But then people out there that see me might think i am the one that nuts. So it all breaks even in the long run.

[mk19]

Wow i was not expecting such a hot topic. Just to clarify , i am not trying to step on anyone's rights or what not just expressing my concern. IMHO the HCP class should not be the first time someone is shooting a firearm. And ofcourse it should not be the last supervised session someone is going to shoot. if possible get some familiarization through freinds, family and i am sure there are people on TGO who'd be willing to help out people hoping to learn more.

[Guest rsgillmd]

Wow i was not expecting such a hot topic. Just to clarify , i am not trying to step on anyone's rights or what not just expressing my concern. IMHO the HCP class should not be the first time someone is shooting a firearm. And ofcourse it should not be the last supervised session someone is going to shoot. if possible get some familiarization through freinds, family and i am sure there are people on TGO who'd be willing to help out people hoping to learn more.

1) Please expand on the part in bold.

2) Regarding the part in italics: I only found out about TGO while doing a google search about a sig p229. How many people really know someone that owns and shoots a handgun? When I was in NJ, n = 0. When I was in NY, n = 1. Prior to me taking the Range Master class, here in TN n = 2 -- all colleagues. How many of these friends and family members do you think have even taken a formal course? My HCP instructor's response to seeing us raise our hands as having not shot a handgun before was "Good. You won't have to unlearn any bad habits." I think that's a very telling statement.

3) Nothing wrong with a hot topic as long as it discussed/debated in a civil manner.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I had the same thoughts about some of the people in the class i took a month ago.

But on retrospect it is not that they are in the class with out knowledge on hand guns, but that ( which we have seen in walmart ) there are people out there that really should not be breeding let alone have access to a handgun. The world is a scary place, and late night visits to most walmarts will confirm this. But then people out there that see me might think i am the one that nuts. So it all breaks even in the long run.

Dunno. The first class I was in, and the renewal refresher HCP class, both contained a mix of fairly upper-yuppie folk. Doctors, lawyers, businessmen, housewives, grannies. I was surprised how well grannie did on the silhouette target.

There is no substitute for training/experience, but the purpose of that course is not to turn civilians into expert police.

[gnmwilliams]

I guess we should all just be glad that Walmart doesn't offer classes.

[JPS]

It wasn't the people with little or no experience who made me uneasy in my class.. It was the guy next to me who remarked to his friend, "I'm a f*****g bad-ass now - PD better not try to come into my house!" after (just barely) qualifying with a borrowed .22.

[Guest sck]

It's just the way we are as people.

How many people took more than one drivers education class?

When they got the DL did they know everything and have a high level of skill of behind the wheel?

Have you taken a class on using a chain saw, circular saw, or table saw? Those are pretty dangerous too.

How many that carry a knife have had a knife class?

My assumption was everyone who took the HCP passed. Is this true...does anyone know or heard of anyone failing the course? Maybe they should start failing people like the driving test???

[Guest MrChicken]

My assumption was everyone who took the HCP passed. Is this true...does anyone know or heard of anyone failing the course? Maybe they should start failing people like the driving test???

People do fail. It's more often the written test than the shooting. The instructors at my range are very good at what they do. They can not however teach somebody to read in 4 hours of classroom time.

Everyone I saw fail the written test, could not read, yes you read that correctly.

[dunndw]

People can fail the shooting portion. I've had two. One was using a old pair of glasses and couldn't see the front site, the 2nd was using a very old DA wheelgun. She was a novice and the DA trigger pull was throwing her shots all over the place.

Several of our classes have had people in there for their 1st experiance shooting a handgun. With the proper training and instruciton MOST people can pass pretty well.

Failing the written portion takes a special level of stupid...it's open book. If they can't read....doom on them

Practicing what they have learned is another story all together.