Unions Are the Bestest

[leroy]

Folks:____________

AR is exactly right. Everyone who loves liberty and believes in the capitalist system would do well to consider what is said here:

...Bitch about the Republicans all you want, people, and you've lost. The Democrats

use any tool they have, and it is the unions, which are heavily dominated by marxists

and have been throughout their history, that are the leading edge in a civil war.

Some of the 'intellectual' discussions we have on here just completely miss the point.

You can fix the Republicans, but see how hard it is to fix the 'all out communism' coming from the ranks of the Democrats. It took the economy of the US to crush

the Soviet Union. If there is no economy to use next time, how do you think that

will end? ...

The fact is that the problem with the Republicans is the "politician problem"; politicians run on one platform and they govern on another. The Tea Party Movement is doing a great job of sending the message to those "politicians" that they better do exactly what they say they should do; and I (...and many others, I’m sure...) are in complete agreement with sending that message. We need to sweep out those who won't mind.

That being said, politics is all about winning first. Since we have a two party system; it's either the Republicans or the Democrats. It is a fact, as Froggy opined in a great one liner in another political thread:

..."The Democrats moved hard left and the Republicans followed them. ....

This, too, is exactly right. At this juncture in history, a vote for a Democrat is a vote for what you have today; ... A Marxist government that is destroying what economy this country has left. The fact of the matter is that if there are no people with money (...read that capitalists, "Fat Cats", bank executives, CEO's, ..on and on --- you get the picture...). There is no capital available for investment to create jobs and pay taxes. It has never not been that way. Folks need to understand (...and I think many are beginning to...) that the bunch governing this country today are taking it to third world status as fast as they can. The fact is that this economics stuff aint too hard to understand. The principles of job creation are not new things. They have been known since the 1800's.

A question that everyone needs to ask himself is this: "If you can create jobs by lowering taxes, easing restrictions on banking, and cleaning up regulation of business; why is it that the Nobama administration doesn't do it? The answer is simple. The presently constituted Demorat party in power does not believe in capitalism and the free market. They are, in fact, committed Marxists (...they deny it, but their actions and history say differently...), and are following the lead of every other Marxist regime that has operated before.

This is a serious issue for everyone who believes in what this country USED (...the hippy generation and "Flower Children [Marxists, all] have done a pretty good job of changing this in lots of peoples minds since the sixties...) to be founded on. The guarantees of private property and individual freedom (…read that business enterprise and investments…). Folks, it's a short step from where we are now economically to the seizure of private property (...and companies are private property...). Without property, you are a serf. Think about that before you pick the next guy (...or gal...) who will represent you in your local, state, or federal election.

Remember, there is an election this fall and in 2012, Vote early and often!! The opposition sure will!!!

Food for thought.

Leroy

Edited May 22, 2010 by leroy
spelling!!!!

[DaveTN]

Some of the 'intellectual' discussions we have on here just completely miss the point.

You can fix the Republicans, but see how hard it is to fix the 'all out communism' coming from the ranks of the Democrats. It took the economy of the US to crush the Soviet Union. If there is no economy to use next time, how do you think that will end?

It won’t end well, but that is on you, me and every member reading this forum. Every financial expert in the last 10 years has acknowledged that the economy cannot recover until we recover our manufacturing base.

Unlike you, I am not a union member. I am skilled trades (Toolmaker by trade) and work in manufacturing. I don’t want to be in a union and most machine shops are not union. But unions certainly are not the problem unless you want to make the argument that the American workers wage should be competitive with a sweat shop in China. If you believe that then yes, the unions are in your way.

You can remove the wage issue and an American Company still on not on a level playing field. OSHA, EPA, Workman’s Comp, Unemployment insurance, Employee insurance, 401K’s. Those are some of the costs that an American company has that their foreign competitors don’t have to worry about.

We will buy anything that is cheap. Doesn’t matter where it is made, the quality doesn’t matter, just as long as it is cheap. If it is a cheap foriegn made product we will claim high quality whether it is or not so we can feel good about our purchase. We see that on this forum every day.

We can’t blame the unions and we can’t blame foreign countries. Our lifestyle and our economy is on us. Unfortunately I don’t think there are enough patriots to get us out of this.

[machinist]

I was born in Floyd Co. Ky. My great grandfather was a miner. My grandfather was a miner who had to quit school after the 8th grade to go to work in the mines to help support the family. My father was a UMW of A member in his younger days. I've got cousins who still work in the mines. As late as 1970 Miners in Harlan Co. still lived in company housing without indoor toilets. The Northern banksters and businessmen with John C. C. Mayo as there representative came in and conned the land owners into selling their mineral rights for almost nothing. It was either work in the mines or starve. John L. Lewis and the UMW of A helped raise the standard of living far higher than the mine owners ever would have done on their own. Nobody on this board would put up with living in the conditions that the pre-union miners lived in. Read up on the mine gun thugs murdering people (Matewan, Logan Co., & Mingo Co. WV). The union brought in better wages and working conditions as well as better housing and health care. The union is why you have the work benefits you do in even non-union jobs. The machinist union at AEDC has set the bar for wages and benefits for all other machine shops in the area (one shop foreman where I worked actually said that very thing). Other shops have to stay competative to attract labor. No, I'm not a union member. Where I work has no need for a union and I'd vote against one if it tried to come in, but I do benefit indirectly from unions. The days when a union was necessary have pretty much passed but don't ever think they didn't serve a purpose in the not to distant past. The SEIU though is a band of thugs and they were out of line coming to that persons home, just as right-to-lifers are wrong to picket abortionist's homes. The banks may try to take advantage but it's a person's own fault if they let them. We all are responsible for our own actions. That's the main problem, in my humble opinion, with the Democratic Party. They tell everyone that their lot in life is the fault of someone or something else and a vote for the DNC is a chance to get back at the "them" that's put them where they are. The Republicans with their arrogant disregard for the opinions of the "common" folk are barely better. I've voted mostly for Republicans because I felt that I had a better chance of keeping my own money with them in charge. Dubya knocked that in the head. Hopefully the American people will wake up and vote all the b*$+*rd$ out.

[DaveTN]

Folks:____________

AR is exactly right. Everyone who loves liberty and believes in the capitalist system would do well to consider what is said here:

The fact is that the problem with the Republicans is the "politician problem"; politicians run on one platform and they govern on another. The Tea Party Movement is doing a great job of sending the message to those "politicians" that they better do exactly what they say they should do; and I (...and many others, I’m sure...) are in complete agreement with sending that message. We need to sweep out those who won't mind.

That being said, politics is all about winning first. Since we have a two party system; it's either the Republicans or the Democrats. It is a fact, as Froggy opined in a great one liner in another political thread:

This, too, is exactly right. At this juncture in history, a vote for a Democrat is a vote for what you have today; ... A Marxist government that is destroying what economy this country has left. The fact of the matter is that if there are no people with money (...read that capitalists, "Fat Cats", bank executives, CEO's, ..on and on --- you get the picture...). There is no capital available for investment to create jobs and pay taxes. It has never not been that way. Folks need to understand (...and I think many are beginning to...) that the bunch governing this country today are taking it to third world status as fast as they can. The fact is that this economics stuff aint too hard to understand. The principles of job creation are not new things. They have been known since the 1800's.

A question that everyone needs to ask himself is this: "If you can create jobs by lowering taxes, easing restrictions on banking, and cleaning up regulation of business; why is it that the Nobama administration doesn't do it? The answer is simple. The presently constituted Demorat party in power does not believe in capitalism and the free market. They are, in fact, committed Marxists (...they deny it, but their actions and history say differently...), and are following the lead of every other Marxist regime that has operated before.

This is a serious issue for everyone who believes in what this country USED (...the hippy generation and "Flower Children [Marxists, all] have done a pretty good job of changing this in lots of peoples minds since the sixties...) to be founded on. The guarantees of private property and individual freedom (…read that business enterprise and investments…). Folks, it's a short step from where we are now economically to the seizure of private property (...and companies are private property...). Without property, you are a serf. Think about that before you pick the next guy (...or gal...) who will represent you in your local, state, or federal election.

Remember, there is an election this fall and in 2012, Vote early and often!! The opposition sure will!!!

Food for thought.

Leroy

This isn’t totally about politics or politicians. Certainly who you vote for is important, but the government can’t fix our economy. We need to send a message that we will vote for those politicians that will bring jobs to this country; not those that are down in Mexico making deals to take more jobs away.

The fate of our economy is on the buyer, what you purchase will either fix or destroy our economy. No… this isn’t rocket science; we need to act and not stand around waiting to see what the government does.

We need to practice protectionism. That isn’t a bad word; that is what every other country is doing.

“Global Economy†means that all countries economies will reach an even level. Is that want you want? I don’t.

When your Grandkids don’t have all the things we have today and can barely afford to buy a house and they look you in the eye and ask “How could you have been so stupid as to do this to us?†What will you tell them? I’ll have a clear conscience. And if I’m gone my family will them “Your grandfather told us this would happen and we didn’t listen.â€

If you see the government and unions as the boogie man and think they control your destiny; you deserve what you get. Too bad the final impact won’t be on those who are causing this problem.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I see the government and the unions as the boogeyman, plain as day. When they do

everything they can to stifle wealth creation, and gain power over you, why can't you

see this?

Nothing wrong with an equal playing field, but the government and the unions don't want this. They want power over you.

[Mark@Sea]

The government can't produce wealth, can't create jobs - not wealth producing jobs, anyway. Every dollar the government spends comes from either taxation or devaluation of money through printing.

Unions these days are vampires, using intimidation and government influence to force their victims to submit.

Like a virus, these two parasites are killing the host.

[DaveTN]

I see the government and the unions as the boogeyman, plain as day. When they do

everything they can to stifle wealth creation, and gain power over you, why can't you

see this?

Nothing wrong with an equal playing field, but the government and the unions don't want this. They want power over you.

What do you mean “They want power over you�

I’m not defending unions. As I said I’m not in one and don’t want to be in one, but you can’t fight a fight if you don’t know who the enemy is.

Do the unions do stupid things… sure. But if the unions were gone today it would not impact the situation one bit. Also. If the unions were gone today; we would need them back tomorrow. I could show you shops in the middle Tennessee area that are the reason we have a need for unions. It would be great if business owners would abide by the laws; but they don’t.

I think most of the hatred of unions is because they create a “special groupâ€. I see “company people†that are upset because there are “shop people†making more money than they make. Skilled Trades workers make more money than a lot of company jobs. Why? Because they have a skill set that is harder to replace. IT guys that are usually company jobs and not union jobs are a dime a dozen with college degrees. They get upset that a CNC Programmer/Machine Operator on the floor is making more than them and doesn’t have a degree. They don’t look that the fact that I can place an ad for an IT guy or an entry level Mechanical Engineer and have a dozen resumes from qualified people in a day; try that with skilled trades and see what you get.

I think another problem is those that don’t understand manufacturing. Many see shop workers as uneducated laborers that have no skills or education; nothing could be farther from the truth. Not all the high paying jobs are in the office. Machinists, CNC Programmers, Toolmakers, Mold Makers, Sheet Metal Workers, Welders, Electricians, machinery Repair Techs, these are just a few of the “shop workers†that make good salaries because of their skill sets.

We see the same thing here. HCP holders are a “Special Group†when it comes to the laws. Yet those in that “special Group†get upset because there is another “Special Group†(Cops) that some think are a more “specialer group†than their special group. See how that works?

I am proud to say that I am part of the ultimate special group; I am an American Patriot.

When I make purchases, whether or not the item impacts American jobs is a factor to me. Do I only buy American made products? Of course not, my big screen TV’s are foreign, my DSLR is foreign, my Dell computer is foreign parts that were assembled here but I can’t even do that anymore. However… some of the most important things I can still buy “American Madeâ€. Cars, Motorcycles, Guns, and liquor (Hey, I said the important stuff ) I can still buy from American companies employing American workers (although it is getting pretty hard with cars).

What do you do for a living? And why are you in a closed shop; do you not work in Tennessee?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It all goes back to that quote, "Where govenment grows, freedom dies", by a famous anti federalist.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I am a locomotive engineer for CSX Transportation. It doesn't matter about Tennessee's "right to work" status, due to my job being regulated by the Railway Labor Act. So don't bother with that Barbra Streisand about that.

Value of a certain job is created by the complexity and demand of that job. Value is also created by the man's mind that came up with the idea of a product that someone desires.

You seem to be like Atlas, holding all the world's burdens on his back when you defend the unions. The unions didn't create anything special, they just take, at least nowadays.

"I think another problem is those that don’t understand manufacturing. Many see shop workers as uneducated laborers that have no skills or education; nothing could be farther from the truth. Not all the high paying jobs are in the office. Machinists, CNC Programmers, Toolmakers, Mold Makers, Sheet Metal Workers, Welders, Electricians, machinery Repair Techs, these are just a few of the “shop workers” that make good salaries because of their skill sets."

So, this justifies unions? I don't follow this. Get rid of the corporate tax structure and you would see companies staying in this country. Get the corruption out of the unions and you might see a "good" union.

"I am proud to say that I am part of the ultimate special group; I am an American Patriot."

Did anyone question this? I am also part of that special group.

"What do you do for a living? And why are you in a closed shop; do you not work in Tennessee?"

See above, before you try to start calling me some kind of phony.

That dog won't hunt.

A government is nothing more than the people that make it up. Right now it is made up of power hungry marxist types. The Constitution be damned, and they say it, sometimes

within earshot of a microphone. Yes, even some Republicans, but they will get whittled out.

[DaveTN]

So don't bother with that Barbra Streisand about that.

I don’t know what that means?

You seem to be like Atlas, holding all the world's burdens on his back when you defend the unions.

I must be a little slow today; I don’t know what that means either. As I said unlike you; I’m not in a union. I am not defending them I am pointing out that they while they might be a minor problem they are pretty insignificant in the total picture.

See above, before you try to start calling me some kind of phony.

That dog won't hunt.

You being a phony was not what I was thinking; I was confused about how you could be in a closed shop in Tennessee. That is why I ask.

A government is nothing more than the people that make it up. Right now it is made up of power hungry marxist types. The Constitution be damned, and they say it, sometimes within earshot of a microphone. Yes, even some Republicans, but they will get whittled out.

Really?

I am a locomotive engineer for CSX Transportation.

That’s a pretty good paying job; probably $75K a year or more at your age. Do you think if there were no unions you would make that kind of money to drive a train?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yes, really DaveTN. What is your perspective of what makes up this government?

Chocolate covered donuts?

Crist in Florida, Bennet in Utah, others are being challenged by conservatives, also.

It takes a while but it can happen.

And that amount of money, which is not far off, has to do with the nature of the job, hours and the conditions I have to work under. It is a call job, mostly,

and it is any time of the day. I know other railroads that pay much better, and some

less. I enjoy doing my job, not paying union dues to Jimmy Hoffa

This is straying too far to be about me and not the issue. I remember you accusing another member of not being who he said he was.

Probably would make the same or possibly better. I've always had a good paying job,

my entire life, and it wasn't because of union status. It was because of my desire to

make myself valuable to an employer. If I had a problem with a particular job, I found another.

[Good_Steward]

I will be the first to say this:

I am in management. If not for a union, my job would not be here. I'll elaborate:

The corporate site was in Covington, KY. It was a manufacturing site, as well as corporate offices. The union nearly drove the company under, so they simply closed it's doors, and moved it's offices, as well as two manufacturing facilities, to Chattanooga, TN. Voila!, management positions for hire. Thanks, unions! If not for you trying to strangle a company, I would not have my current position!

[leroy]

All:____________

You that are ambivalent about the union and its origins should do a bit of reading about the era from about 1900 thru the New Deal with regard to the economic situation in general, and the union movement in particular.

Here is a great place to start:

"Bloodletting in Appalachia: The Story of West Virginia's Four Major Mine Wars and Other Thrilling Incidents of Its Coal Fields" by Howard B. Lee (...alibris link here: Bloodletting in Appalachia: The Story of West Virginia's Four Major Mine Wars and Other Thrilling Incidents of Its Coal Fields by Howard B Lee (Used, New, Out-of-Print) - Alibris

Howard B. Lee is dead and gone now; but he was a lawyer from Southern West Virginia and was a former State's Prosecutor for the State of West Virginia. His book is based upon documents from court proceedings, state and federal records of the times, newspaper articles, and interviews with old time union leaders. It gives plenty of insight into the motives and methods of the union movement. There are plenty of lies floating around about the background, motives, and methods of the union. This book is a great window into those times because it was written by a man who lived during the beginnings of the union movement in West Virginia right up thru the 1960's.

I was raised in a family of God Fearing, New Deal Democrat union members who had no idea just how heinous the beginnings of the union movement were. I have worked some 38 years prior to retirement with union men (... lots of them great, some of them "not worth a damn"...) in the fabrication and construction industry. During that 38 year time, I was both a worker and a member of management or the technical community. Never once, during that period did I participate in a 'fat cat capitalist' assault on any union member or his family; as some would have you believe. I am also very well aware that there are some fine people in the union ranks (..many of them dear friends...). Some of them because they have to be due to the "closed shop" and some because they grew up in union families (...building trades, major railroad, machinists, etc...). To a person, none of them would condone the type of thug tactics that the UMWA and others in the union movement have perpetrated over the years.

I remember very well the prolonged strike against the Blue Diamond Coal Company in eastern Kentucky that went on for years. You could not go for more than two weeks without seeing a burned out or blown up coal truck sitting at the old East Tennessee Ford Truck Dealership on Clinton Highway here in Knoxville. Today, many of those mines (...and miners who worked them...) are closed due to the violence of that strike. There are no jobs there now.

Today we live in a time in which the history revisionists have largely won the day in the mainstream media, academia, and the school system with regard to all these socialist inspired beginnings in the labor movement. They have also forgot the heinous criminal and seditious acts that were perpetrated by union organizers and others during this period because that doesn't fit their templet of the "poor put upon, downtrdden worker" struggling against the mean capitalists. The revisionists have done their work well and many believe the tales that say that the "fat cat capitalists' were the only bad guys and the "little guy" was mistreated. The fact is that there were, indeed, a few bad "fat cat mine owners". The fact also is that these guys were far outnumbered by those who believed that it was ok to kill your neighbor just because he wanted to go to work. Some were even killed for trying to leave for another location to get away from the union violence.

The union movement today has morphed into a tool to organize for the sake of organizing to gain numbers to improve the union's voting bloc, which is pitifully small, but is a large part of the Demorat power block. The SEIU stands for the "SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION". It is, in no way, a 'guild" or "skilled labor" organization like many of the old time unions were. There is no "apprentice program" to complete to join the SEIU ---just pay your dues and follow the party line that the union bosses put out. To compare the SEIU with any of the old time unions is laughable. They do, however, have one thing in common with some of them: Thuggism and intimidation tactics.

At best, the union is a necessary evil (...one that has been endorsed by the US Government since 1933...). At worst, it is a socialist inspired (...here in the USA, at least...) organization that has lived passed its usefulness (...until recently...). The fact is, that the new use of the union is political. For those who really work; there has been a referendum on the unions for about the last 50 years. The unions have lost. Union membership as of about 1998 was about 14% overall (link here: http://economics.about.com/od/laborinamerica/a/union_decline.htm ).

What you are seeing today with the Nobama regime is an extreme union payback and endorsement for voting Demorat.

The fact is, in the end, everything is about politics. No country can "spend its way into prosperity with money it has to borrow to do the buying with." Prosperity will be returned to this country when folks are allowed to create real jobs without the meddlings of special interest groups and politicians who can be bought and sold like cattle for a few pennies. This prosperity will be driven by honest folks who are willing to give "a fair days work for a fair days pay" with money that they earn in the private sector. It will not be fixed by those 'on the dole" who think that government is the source of every good and perfect thing. Don’t be drug off into the bushes by the baloney that says we need more regulation in the areas of worker safety, environmental compliance, equal opportunity, right to organize, banking, etc, etc. It aint the real issue. The real issue is the murder of capitalism in this country and the rise of a Marxist government run by elites and populated by serfs. Guess who the serf will be.

Leroy

Edited May 22, 2010 by leroy
spelling!!!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Thanks for posting that, leroy. It is much better than me getting emotionally charged

and angering others.

[Guest HvyMtl]

FYI: 6.8 AR, the comment I made,"In some cases, the "union bosses" are nothing but corporate officials, twisted to what the corporation wants and needs, and not for the employees." was written thinking about the CSXT unions and their actions.

Had direct dealings with both Union "leaders" and CSXT Officials... Very interchangeable.

The unions on the RailRoads did major impact to the greater good for employees everywhere. Were it not for them, things like work safety, retirement, and workers compensation, would not exist.

The RailRoad Unions went wrong after WWII, and struck, creating, practically over night, the trucking industry... costing tons of jobs and almost killing the railroads at the same time. However, they did create the lesser paying trucking industry jobs... They are to blame for the umpteen thousands of trucks wasting fuel on the interstates.

It is true, the monies made by the Engineer and Conductor are directly creditable to the old version of the Unions.

Yet, there is still a union for Brakemen, something replaced, effectively, when air brakes were installed on trains... ages ago. Yet, there are still Brakemen, mandated on certain rail crews and trains.

And your employer is one of the major players in the push to remove Conductors, placing Carmen at intervals along the rail, on call, in case of any mechanical issues, making a rail crew ONE person, the Engineer. So far, this has been blocked by the Unions, and Congress, as the Conductor Union would practically cease to exist, and the very valid issue of safety (Engineer goes down, no one at the controls.) CSXT is also pushing remote controlled engines. This, sadly will be the future of rail, no rail crew, all trains controlled out of Jacksonville, FL by satellite. Had the Congress and the Presidency stayed Republican, this probably would have already occurred, well, at least the removal of Conductors.

But I digress.

There are few Unions still valid in the present day. SEIU, and many others, not so much. Just ask the Union workers who used to build Peterbilt Trucks in Tennessee. Even though the plant here in Tennessee was the most modern plant, Peterbilt moved the building of the trucks to Texas, in a "cost saving measure," due to the "poor economy," not hiding the truth the Texas plant was non-Union and cheaper to run.

Edited May 23, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Some of them are interchangeable as officers and/or labor union leaders. I'm not arguing that. And for that matter I only brought up my employment because of another's questioning it. Brakemen are almost completely gone, now. They are being called blankable positions.

I don't see any difference between the Republican and Democrat influencing anything

differently at my workplace, nor do I expect to, but the overwhelming majority of fellow employees claim to be democrats and a handful I have talked to just don't vote.

It is probably at the forefront of changing technology and reducing workforce.

I don't disagree at all about that. But I don't think you can blame one company for

singlehandedly starting the trucking industry. And I remember at least a couple of

strikes at Peterbilt in my lifetime, although I don't remember what they were about.

If unions are the great thing some think they are, then why has membership been on the

decline? Is everyone becoming a hamburger flipper? A portion of my union dues goes

to political activity and organizing, which I believe I have no say.

You can forget about where I work for a moment. I never intended for it to be central

in this discussion, anyway. If a union is voluntary and is on a level playing field and

represents it's members to keep the workplace safe and pay is equitable, that's one thing.

If, however a union is doing dirty work for a political party, paying for it with

union members' dues and protesting in front of private individuals' home, it has ceased

to be beneficial for anyone except it's master. Take your pick on who you might think

the master is.

It's funny you mentioned the railroads' union demise. They blame everything on

another party(Republican) and PATCO. Mostly Ronald Reagan. When that happened,

it created a two tier employee pay structure. It is widely considered that the old employees

sold out the new employees to save their job protection. You can call it what you wish,

but it was times a changing, friend. I have no illusions about my job.

I happen to enjoy my job, and probably would have, whether or not it was a union or

nonunion workplace.

SEIU is but one example of a bad union. A good union would stick to it's charter and represent

the people that pay the dues, not political parties. I have always wondered why union members

don't expect a fiduciary responsibility, just like a real estate broker or an attorney.

If anyone here wishes to praise today's union, that's fine, and then unionize and tell me how it

works out.

Edited May 23, 2010 by 6.8 AR

[Guest HvyMtl]

Did not blame one company - blamed the railroad unions for heavily influencing (unintentionally) the creation of the trucking industry, by striking just as the interstate system came into its own, and the technology was there for trucking firms to pull the slack.

I bet you hate how the Union mandates you be a member and pay dues. Its why I didnt become a grocery bagger in high school at a local grocery chain. I would not support the union.

I do know of the 2 tier pay - and yes, the old guys did sell the newbies out.

Glad to know you enjoy your job. Rare thing these days.

Attorneys always think of fiduciary duties. They have to, part of their job.

Have yet to praise a present day union and agree they seem to have outlived their beneficial acts...

The railroad was pushing for the one man crew during the Republican Congress. Now, well, they are not, as they know it wont pass.

Sorry if I hit a nerve. Seems we are arguing basically the same points, and are on the same side.

Edited May 23, 2010 by HvyMtl

[Guest 6.8 AR]

You didn't hit a nerve at all. They are still pushing for that one man crew, though.

From what I have heard there are a lot of problems with the UTU(conductors)

negotiation, and it's all between membership and leadership. A lot of unhappy campers

and that's from a local chairman. It is dealing with crew consist. I would just as soon

keep a conductor on the train, but that's not my call.

I was a grocery bagger in high school and paid those dues. I never liked it, either.

My second job was at a nonunion grocery store and the pay was better.

[StPatrick]

Thought experiment, gents: I work in a very unpopular industry. Therefore, I am posing a series of questions; you're welcome to answer, but please consider them even if you don't wish to respond.

Is anyone willing to support and defend the idea of protesters showing up at my doorstep, crowding my tiny lawn, scaring my neighbors, and pulling resources from the local police force because they don't like the work I do to pay the bills?

At what point would you decide that the protest in question went beyond lawful free expression, and passed into willful and deliberate intimidation?

Where would you draw the line between when such a protest is acceptable, and when it is not? What conditions would have to be met for either decision?

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you were in support of it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you disagreed with it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

Food for thought. Thanks, TGOers.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Thought experiment, gents: I work in a very unpopular industry. Therefore, I am posing a series of questions; you're welcome to answer, but please consider them even if you don't wish to respond.

Is anyone willing to support and defend the idea of protesters showing up at my doorstep, crowding my tiny lawn, scaring my neighbors, and pulling resources from the local police force because they don't like the work I do to pay the bills?

No

At what point would you decide that the protest in question went beyond lawful free expression, and passed into willful and deliberate intimidation?

Public disparagement for alleged acts that have nothing to do with your private life, and when they step on your property. May even be libelous

acts by protestors.

Where would you draw the line between when such a protest is acceptable, and when it is not? What conditions would have to be met for either decision?

The instance the protester(s) set foot on your property.

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you were in support of it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

Demand they leave your property, and if they don't, call the police. If the

police refuse to help, you have a right to defend your property.

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you disagreed with it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

Same as above. It doesn't matter whether I agree with them or not.

Food for thought. Thanks, TGOers.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I would approach it.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I'd turn on the sprinkler system.

[MCSCOTT]

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I would approach it.

X2

Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong in my job, or what other people's opinions of me are, and in some forms someone protesting my actions could be understood. However, the second these protesters decide to involve my family in any way, especially on my private property, and law enforcement makes the decision to do nothing, then it will no longer be a peaceful protest.

[Worriedman]

Thought experiment, gents: I work in a very unpopular industry. Therefore, I am posing a series of questions; you're welcome to answer, but please consider them even if you don't wish to respond.

Is anyone willing to support and defend the idea of protesters showing up at my doorstep, crowding my tiny lawn, scaring my neighbors, and pulling resources from the local police force because they don't like the work I do to pay the bills?

Not I. If they want to show up at an office or place of work, that is a different thing.

At what point would you decide that the protest in question went beyond lawful free expression, and passed into willful and deliberate intimidation?

When they entered your private property.

Where would you draw the line between when such a protest is acceptable, and when it is not? What conditions would have to be met for either decision?

If they stay in the street, and the police have no problem with them blocking traffic, cool. Stay off the private property.

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you were in support of it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

Can't tell you what to do, that is your business.

In the event that such a protest were to occur, and you disagreed with it, what recourse would you recommend I take?

Ibid.

Food for thought. Thanks, TGOers.

Should be an individual thing.