Restaurant carry Vetoed!

[Fallguy]

This explains a great deal about the signage circle/slash thing:

Restaurant Carry 2.0-What Happens Now? | walls of the city

Restaurant Carry 2.0-What Happens Now?

As expected, Governor Bredesen vetoed SB3012.

So what happens now?

Well, last night I got to speak with Senator Doug Jackson about that. The timeline basically will go like this: On Monday, he’ll make a motion on the Senate Floor that will allow them to vote on the veto override. Once that passes, it has to sit for at least 24 hours before they can vote on it. The next Senate floor session after that vote will be Wednesday, May 26th. After the veto override passes, it gets sent to the House. Sen. Jackson indicated that the House does, in fact, have the time to do the override.

This bill will become law, effective July 1st. They just have to go through the motions on the override.

We also talked about the signage amendment, why it was added, and what it means. Basically, the original bill cleaned up the 1359 signage requirement by removing the “substantially similar to†phrasing. Here’s where it gets tricky.

Apparently, back in 2000 when the 1359 language was last updated, some lawyers for the state decided that posting the circle/slash symbol was all that was needed for posting on state buildings. In their world, that is “substantially similar to†the giant paragraph of text we are used to looking for. So the people that run one of the state buildings downtown pulled down their old signs and put up the symbol only.

Now, we can go back and forth about how that was a ridiculous reading of the law, and how the state shouldn’t hire lawyers who found their JDs in a crackerjack box, but that wouldn’t do us any good. See, by clarifying the 1359 language to say “your sign must say exactly this†it means that there is no possible interpretation that the symbol was a valid sign.

So that building would have to replace it’s sign. And that would cost money. Which would mean a fiscal note. Which would kill the bill.

I don’t like it, but that’s the way it is. Of course, as a side effect Randy Rayburn’s stupid “No guns ever, free parking always†sign will be legally binding as of July 1, and it will be a B misdemeanor if you’re caught carrying there or any other place with the symbol. If you ever do it again, it’ll be an A misdemeanor with 48hrs in jail and you’ll lose your permit for a year.

This needs to spread like wildfire through the carry permit community since it has such potential to wreck your life. Make sure all your friends know about this little tidbit.

(On a slighty more cheerful note, expect a Vermont-Style carry bill next session)

Seems like it was discussed that it was some "staff lawyers" on the hill were the ones to thank for they symbol language.

However...I think the law takes effect immediately, not July 1st

Also....where does it say a second violation of 39-17-1359 is a Class A misdemeanor?

[mikegideon]

One more time... Randy Rayburn got plenty of my money over the years, but No More.

[Guest friesepferd]

Also....where does it say a second violation of 39-17-1359 is a Class A misdemeanor?

+1. its only a $500 fine. thats it unless i am reading the bill completely wrong.

[Guest Jamie]

(On a slighty more cheerful note, expect a Vermont-Style carry bill next session)

Seeing such a bill won't surprise me...

Seeing it actually pass will probably cause me to have to pick myself up off the floor.

J.

[Fallguy]

Seeing such a bill won't surprise me...

Seeing it actually pass will probably cause me to have to pick myself up off the floor.

J.

+1000

[Guest jackdm3]

You would think that Randy's stance would yield a mention in his bio if it's such a worthy cause. Does anyone have a pic of his sign? I'd expect it to go beyond the required wording.

About us | Sunset Grill Restaurant 615-386-3663

[Guest HexHead]

Rayburn's sign simply said "No Guns- Ever, Free Parking- Always" and had no international symbol. The new law states either/or the international symbol or substantially similar to the prescribed sign. I don't see how, unless he adds the symbol, his sign passes muster?

[Guest friesepferd]

Rayburn's sign simply said "No Guns- Ever, Free Parking- Always" and had no international symbol. The new law states either/or the international symbol or substantially similar to the prescribed sign. I don't see how, unless he adds the symbol, his sign passes muster?

ya me either. really that entire letter confuses me and is full of statements i dont see in the bill at all.

[Fallguy]

Rayburn's sign simply said "No Guns- Ever, Free Parking- Always" and had no international symbol. The new law states either/or the international symbol or substantially similar to the prescribed sign. I don't see how, unless he adds the symbol, his sign passes muster?

Agree...

While I like what the "Walls of the City" blog is trying to do....there is quite a bit of misinformation in that post.

[Guest themark712]

I haven't posted in a while, so this seemed like a good place to pick up.

I'm fed up with a select few Tennessee politicians. Other than Christian, father, and husband, there are very few things I'm more proud to call myself than Tennessean. But it seems the Nashville and Memphis politicians are bent on destroying everything that is good about this state (no offense intended to our Nashville and Memphis folks here, I'm a Nashvillian myself).

Someone said it best earlier: there is no word in the English language to convey what a scoundrel Bredesen is. His exit from office will be, in my opinion, a day of liberation for the people of Tennessee. But my frustration is not limited to him. I live in a district represented by a Republican who voted against the restaurant bill both times. So what am I to do in November. Unless I luck up and there is a Democrat who goes against the grain on guns and income taxes, I guess I will write-in or just hope for a third-party option.

I would advise TGO to get on board with Ramsey or Haslam and start now to make sure we don't risk putting another Bredesen on Charlotte Avenue.

[Guest TNReb]

Response I received this morning from my Senator, Bill Ketron's office:

Senator Ketron does support the override of Governor Bredesen's veto.

Thank you for your support.

Sandy Smith

Legislative Assistant to Senator Bill Ketron

13 Legislative Plaza

Nashville, TN 37243-0213

(615) 741-1100 (ext. 44682)

sandra.smith@capitol.tn.gov

[Guest TNReb]

This was posted by John Harris, Executive Director of Tennessee Firearms Association, over at tfaonline:

The Veto - Futility in Action if we do our job

We are here this year primarily because a local restauranteur asked a Nashville court to intervene and declare the law passed in 2009 unconstitutional. The court agreed that the definition of a restaurant in last year’s law was too vague and thus posed a risk for permit holders of unfair criminal prosecution. Consequently, the Legislature removed the vagueness in the 2010 version of the law. To some extent, the existence of the 2010 legislation is due primarily to Randy Rayburn’s decision to litigate ostensibly and disingenuinely for the interests of Tennessee's firearms owners rather than to merely post a compliant notice on his property. For that reason, we could for convenience refer to the 2010 legislation as the "Randy Rayburn Law." Before we can do that, however, we must put on the final push to make it a law rather than a vetoed bill.

Gov. Bredesen’s decision to veto HB3125/SB3012 is a mere temporary step in the process to pass legislation this year to reinforce the legislature’s determination that the existing law no longer expressed a reasonable or valid public policy. The Governor vetoed it claiming it to be too expansive and asserting without factual premise the simple minded and inapplicable adage that "guns and alcohol do not mix." A point apparently overlooked by the Governor - perhaps just as Attorney General Holder failed to read and understand the Arizona immigrant enforcement law before he opened his mouth - is that the 2010 law makes clear that those who can carry in public cannot consume any alcohol while doing so. The 2010 law expressly prohibits alcohol consumption by armed permit holders.

The futility of the move is that the votes on the bill both last year and this year already prove the willingness and intent of the Legislature to put this law on the books, to avert the continued costs to the state of an appeal of the 2009 law, and to make the carry laws simplier for law enforcement and citizens to understand. Apparently, all goals with which the Governor disagrees. He choose to veto a bill that he knows will likely be a mere jesture. What it has done, however, is forced an issue on his party where the caucus will split in an election year. Conservative and 2nd Amendment supporting caucus members are expected to vote for the override as they did last year. Those who do not put priority on the rights of the citizens will vote no or abstain.

As transpired last year, we expect to see this maneuver by the governor rejected by the legislature in a matter of days but we cannot sit silently and just wait for that to transpire. Time is of the essence and we must put on a full press now to make the veto override a time critical task for the Legislature. It is time to call, email and make appointments to see all legislators. Emails and phone numbers are available at the Legislative Directory.

Here is why time is critical. We expect the process to be that Senator Jackson will file a motion this week that he will seek an override of the veto. That motion will likely be scheduled in the Senate session (only 3 days left) on Monday. That motion, under the current rules, will require at least 24 hours before it can be heard. Senate Rules provide:

67. NOTICE TO OVERRIDE GOVERNOR'S VETO. Prior to any member seeking to override the Governor's veto on any bill, a written motion to do same on a day certain shall be filed with the Clerk and notice shall be given at least twenty-four (24) hours prior to such motion being called up, with the exception that in the last two (2) days of any annual session, this rule shall not be applicable. A member may invoke this rule only twice on a bill in any session without suspension of the rules.

It is expected that the Senate motion will take place next Wednesday and that the override would then be sent to the House for concurrence under its rules, which provide:

78. VETO.

Upon receipt of a veto message and return of a bill or resolution from the Governor, or a receipt of a message from the Senate advising the House that a bill or joint resolution has been passed by the Senate, the Governor's veto to the contrary notwithstanding, the Clerk shall read the message and cause the same to be spread at large upon the Journal. Thereafter, the sponsor of the bill or resolution may, upon twenty-four (24) hours typewritten notice and within three (3) legislative days after the filing of said notice, except the last legislative day of any annual session such notice shall not be required, move the House under the item of Unfinished Business to pass the bill or resolution, notwithstanding the objections of the Executive. If the motion shall prevail by a favorable vote of a majority of the members to which the House is entitled under the Constitution, the bill or joint resolution shall then be transmitted to the Senate unless the same was originally received from the Senate subsequent to its prior approval.

Nothing in this rule shall serve to prohibit the filing of subsequent notices to move the House to pass the bill or resolution, notwithstanding the objections of the Executive, if affirmative action is not taken on the motion first noticed.

In summary, it is critical to move things forward on the veto as fast as possible to avoid the risk that they will finish the budget first and adjourn. To do this, we must ask them to suspend the notice rules and take these matters up on the first available days. The suspension of the notice rules will require a 2/3 majority in each house.

The 2010 legislation has the effect of treating all publicly open establishments the same but subject to the authority of the property owner, whether it be Randy Rayburn or Cracker Barrel, to individually decide whether to post their public facilities. This simplifies the law for everyone and is a more common sense approach. The law also reinforces that those in possession of firearms cannot consume alcohol.

This is very good information, especially the part about suspending the rules. If 2/3 of the Senators vote to suspend the rules on the 24 hours notice, the Senate can take the vote and send it to the House on Monday. The quicker they can send the figurative b***h slap back to Phil H. Obamasen the better! Hey, I just figured out someone I don't mind insulting by lumping him in with the gov. Us--> <--The gov

[TNRobocop]

I am glad that the governor vetoed the law.

I hope they don't override his veto.

This is a crappy comprimise bill.

It needs to be just like the law passed banning smoking in restaurants. The property owner should have no say so.

The biggest fault in this law is that the BS "international symbol", i.e. ghostbusters/circle slash sign is total crap.

The law needs to differentiate between a bar and a restaurant (51% of income is alcohol), and that there can be no restricting lawful HCP carriers from carrying in a restaurant.

That is the law in Oklahoma where I am from and works great. Simple and straightforward.

Why these tards here in TN cannot get it right I have no idea.

[Guest jackdm3]

I don't understand why TN won't ape something that another state has gotten right. Just steal the wording, instead of trying to personalize it!

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I don't understand why TN won't ape something that another state has gotten right. Just steal the wording, instead of trying to personalize it!

They can't really because of the way TN defines a restaurant being different from most other states. At least that is my understanding. TN does not have a legal definition of a bar - EVERYthing is a restaurant.

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

Why these tards here in TN cannot get it right I have no idea.

Cause 90% of them have their heads stuffed so far up their asses they can't even see the sunlight.

[Guest friesepferd]

They can't really because of the way TN defines a restaurant being different from most other states. At least that is my understanding. TN does not have a legal definition of a bar - EVERYthing is a restaurant.

Actually, most states that I know of are like TN. They put the 51%+ of income from alcohol = bar in their bill.

Although that isnt perfect either (unless posted, its hard for us to know many times if it meets that requirment or no), i do think that is better.

However, I am still looking fwd for this bill to go through. Its better than nothing and I wont spend too long complaining.

[GKar]

The "tards" in the legislature deal with political realities, which, as unpopular as some may be, are nevertheless...real. Very real. We opine philosophic about what ideally should happen, but I'm willing to bet few here have actually had to navigate in those waters, and have a full appreciation for the difficulty therein.

First, in order to take on the alcohol language in OK, you'll have to do some grand restructuring of the liquor laws in TN...so, if you first want to wait for that protracted fight...

Second, with perhaps even more inertia to overcome, is the historic place ithat TN legislation has placed upon property owners rights. That's why the so-called "parking lot bill" will now spend a second summer basking in ignominity...watch those sessions for a taste of the difficulty the legislature faces in dealing with property rights issues. Reading between the lines RE legislative leanings, my guess is you will not get any type of bill carry-in-restaurants bill passed in TN that does not acknowledge/perpetuate that inertia.

The oft-spouted solution? "Clean house"...well, go to it. Good luck wit dat.

[Fallguy]

I am glad that the governor vetoed the law.

I hope they don't override his veto.

This is a crappy comprimise bill.

It needs to be just like the law passed banning smoking in restaurants. The property owner should have no say so.

The biggest fault in this law is that the BS "international symbol", i.e. ghostbusters/circle slash sign is total crap.

The law needs to differentiate between a bar and a restaurant (51% of income is alcohol), and that there can be no restricting lawful HCP carriers from carrying in a restaurant.

That is the law in Oklahoma where I am from and works great. Simple and straightforward.

Why these tards here in TN cannot get it right I have no idea.

I don't think any place "open to the public" should be allowed to post....restaurant, bar or movie theater. No reason to make an exception for certain group of businesses

I'm also not sure why the government needs to keep us from carrying in a place that gets more than 51% of its income from alcohol.

It is a shame good laws can keep from getting passed because of a "fiscal note" that is the main reason for the symbol being allowed, so the state wouldn't have to pay to change it's signs.

First I don't think the state should post either...but if they want to make their places off-limits all they have to do is pass a law that makes all state building off-limits without even having to post. That way there should never be a fiscal note when it comes to the posting law.

While not the best bill ever, I am glad it removed 39-17-1305, overall 39-17-1359 is not substantially worse than it was.

In the future I think it will be easier to deal with 39-17-1359 again than alcohol and firearms.

[Guest Jamie]

I figure as long as the place isn't getting 51% of it's income from selling alcohol to you personally, you ought to be able to carry there.

J.

[Guest david_g17]

...That is the law in Oklahoma where I am from and works great. Simple and straightforward.

Why these tards here in TN cannot get it right I have no idea.

Well, then, by all means go back home.

Edited May 20, 2010 by david_g17

[Oh Shoot]

Agree...

While I like what the "Walls of the City" blog is trying to do....there is quite a bit of misinformation in that post.

Yep, hate to rap our own Linoge, but:

"Of course, as a side effect Randy Rayburn’s stupid “No guns ever, free parking always†sign will be legally binding as of July 1, and it will be a B misdemeanor if you’re caught carrying there or any other place with the symbol."

Rayburn's sign would NOT conform, not by a long shot.

July 1st may be wrong.

" If you ever do it again, it’ll be an A misdemeanor with 48hrs in jail and you’ll lose your permit for a year."

Don't know WHERE that little tidbit of misinformation came from.

Probably his source, who doesn't understand the bill he passed.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

They can't really because of the way TN defines a restaurant being different from most other states. At least that is my understanding. TN does not have a legal definition of a bar - EVERYthing is a restaurant.

Actually, most states that I know of are like TN. They put the 51%+ of income from alcohol = bar in their bill. ...

I figure as long as the place isn't getting 51% of it's income from selling alcohol to you personally, you ought to be able to carry there....

If we could follow the money, we'd understand.

You realize that x number of "bars" in the state pay a monthly fine for not conforming to the liquor permit rules, yes? Just like NYC paying the mafia for monthly right to do biz.

Which almost certainly means that there's lots of "undocumented" fines happening, too.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Plus...everyone seems to forget about the dry counties where there is no liquor served, but only beer..which is alcohol too.

Beer licenses are controlled on a local level.

So even if the ABC came up with a definition of a bar, that's not going to solve the problem.

[Guest TnRebel]

My email back from my Senator. ( is that better now )

Ron Ramsey to me

show details 12:04 PM (6 hours ago)

Dear Walter,

Thank you for contacting me and you can absolutely count on my support! I am a handgun permit holder myself and I carried the "Handgun Carry Permit" legislation in 1997 that created the permit. My staff and I even helped in the creation of SB 3012.

I have already begun the steps to override the veto.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Ron Ramsey

Edited May 21, 2010 by TnRebel