Restaurant carry Vetoed!

[Guest TNReb]

Plus...everyone seems to forget about the dry counties where there is no liquor served, but only beer..which is alcohol too.

Beer licenses are controlled on a local level.

So even if the ABC came up with a definition of a bar, that's not going to solve the problem.

Very good point. Obviously, there is no good way to correct this without saying that you can carry anywhere that's not posted. I guess the legislature could set a legal definition for a bar and a restaurant and then require the business to post which one it fell under, but that would open another can of worms. I still think it is a bad idea to drink any alcohol while carrying no matter where you are, including home. But I also think the penalties are pretty harsh if you're not "under the influence." I think if you are driving a big truck or flying a plane the BAC level is pretty low (like .02). Maybe next year they can look at setting a level for carrying. Also, we need to try to move toward Vermont style carry rules next year, especially if we have the right Republican in the Governor's Office.

[Guest TNReb]

My email back from my Rep.

Ron Ramsey to me

show details 12:04 PM (6 hours ago)

Dear Walter,

Thank you for contacting me and you can absolutely count on my support! I am a handgun permit holder myself and I carried the "Handgun Carry Permit" legislation in 1997 that created the permit. My staff and I even helped in the creation of SB 3012.

I have already begun the steps to override the veto.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Ron Ramsey

No fair! That was too easy. HAHA!

[Fallguy]

Very good point. Obviously, there is no good way to correct this without saying that you can carry anywhere that's not posted.

Which is what this does

I guess the legislature could set a legal definition for a bar and a restaurant and then require the business to post which one it fell under, but that would open another can of worms.

Totally agree

I still think it is a bad idea to drink any alcohol while carrying no matter where you are, including home. But I also think the penalties are pretty harsh if you're not "under the influence."

Not going to look it up now, but the AG has said that you can be charged with being in possession of a handgun and under the influence at home. While I am not recommending itfor anyone else...I feel if you can have a drink and still legally drive car (aka 2000lb weapon) you should be able to carry as long are you not drunk (aka under the influence). Consuming and under the influence are two different things...and this bill ends the debate on that as it provides for an additional penalty for being under the influence inside a place that serves above that of just consuming. However I'm fine, for now, with not even being allowed to consume while inside a place as this bill would have never passed otherwise.

I think if you are driving a big truck or flying a plane the BAC level is pretty low (like .02).

Actually .04 best I remember. Had to sign something that said I knew that when I got my CDL, could be one reason this bill also includes adding about alcohol in the HCP safety class.

Maybe next year they can look at setting a level for carrying.

Wouldn't be against that...but it seems like they like to keep grey areas in our laws.

Also, we need to try to move toward Vermont style carry rules next year, especially if we have the right Republican in the Governor's Office.

I imagine a bill will be introduced, but if gets to the floor I'd be truly amazed.

[mikegideon]

My email back from my Rep.

Ron Ramsey to me

show details 12:04 PM (6 hours ago)

Dear Walter,

Thank you for contacting me and you can absolutely count on my support! I am a handgun permit holder myself and I carried the "Handgun Carry Permit" legislation in 1997 that created the permit. My staff and I even helped in the creation of SB 3012.

I have already begun the steps to override the veto.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Ron Ramsey

I may have to get one of his bumper stickers

[Worriedman]

You realize that x number of "bars" in the state pay a monthly fine for not conforming to the liquor permit rules, yes? Just like NYC paying the mafia for monthly right to do biz.

Which almost certainly means that there's lots of "undocumented" fines happening, too.

- OS

Can you provide proof of any of the fines being levied, or collected?

I have a good friend who works in the ABC enforcement division, and there have been no "audits" in at least 4 years, and only a few in the 3 years before that. I find no record of any fines being collected over this.

[Worriedman]

I am glad that the governor vetoed the law.

I hope they don't override his veto.

This is a crappy comprimise bill.

It needs to be just like the law passed banning smoking in restaurants. The property owner should have no say so.

The biggest fault in this law is that the BS "international symbol", i.e. ghostbusters/circle slash sign is total crap.

The law needs to differentiate between a bar and a restaurant (51% of income is alcohol), and that there can be no restricting lawful HCP carriers from carrying in a restaurant.

That is the law in Oklahoma where I am from and works great. Simple and straightforward.

Why these tards here in TN cannot get it right I have no idea.

Do they actually enforce the 51% Law in OK? (It is not in TN) Do they count beer as an alcoholic beverage in OK? (The ABC does not in TN) Does the ABC serve at the pleasure of the Governor, or do they enforce the Law in OK? (The TN ABC serves only at the pleasure of the Governor, and if the Governor bows to the liqueur lobby, so does the ABC).

The ABC has been sunsetted by the Legislature, things may well be really different shortly. If you want to hear Rayburn really squall, hang around.

[mikegideon]

Do they actually enforce the 51% Law in OK? (It is not in TN) Do they count beer as an alcoholic beverage in OK? (The ABC does not in TN) Does the ABC serve at the pleasure of the Governor, or do they enforce the Law in OK? (The TN ABC serves only at the pleasure of the Governor, and if the Governor bows to the liqueur lobby, so does the ABC).

The ABC has been sunsetted by the Legislature, things may well be really different shortly. If you want to hear Rayburn really squall, hang around.

I want to hear him squall, deliverance style

[GKar]

I want to hear him squall, deliverance style

Great, now I gotta try and get THAT image outta my mind...

[mikegideon]

Great, now I gotta try and get THAT image outta my mind...

I can handle the image

[Il Duce]

[mikegideon]

That's the guy!

[eapking]

I would advise TGO to get on board with Ramsey or Haslam and start now to make sure we don't risk putting another Bredesen on Charlotte Avenue.

Um, that would be Ramsey. Haslam has all the makings of another Bredesen (MAIG membership).

[Oh Shoot]

Can you provide proof of any of the fines being levied, or collected?

I have a good friend who works in the ABC enforcement division, and there have been no "audits" in at least 4 years, and only a few in the 3 years before that. I find no record of any fines being collected over this.

It was stated by some state official during the last debate on the restaurant carry. Maybe during committee meetings, not sure.

I'll look back and see if I can find the original thread and/or link.

- OS

[mikegideon]

Um, that would be Ramsey. Haslam has all the makings of another Bredesen (MAIG membership).

All MAIG members need to be forced to move to New york, and be denied a permit or body guards for the rest of their lives.

[Oh Shoot]

Can you provide proof of any of the fines being levied, or collected?

I have a good friend who works in the ABC enforcement division, and there have been no "audits" in at least 4 years, and only a few in the 3 years before that. I find no record of any fines being collected over this.

Proof?

No.

Found the original post where link was:

Guns-in-restaurants bill advances in House | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

"Although Tennessee code does not define bars, there are dozens of restaurants across the state that do not meet the minimum food service requirement. In response, establishments are paying a monthly fine to the state’s Alcoholic Beverage Commission."

Perhaps just an echo, but here's another:

TN bill would ban guns in bars, allow them in restaurants | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

Tennessee law says all businesses that serve liquor are restaurants and must make more than 50 percent of their take from food sales. But many restaurants across the state do not meet that requirement.Those establishments pay a monthly fine to the state's Alcoholic Beverage Commission. The fine is a pittance compared with the money made serving liquor.

So, maybe these are ones that simply have been paying a fine since the last rounds of audits. I have no idea.

I'd say if ABC lists their accounting stats anywhere, would be only way to know for sure what they officially collect.

Of course, any under the table money for NOT auditing a given restaurant wouldn't be included, eh?

- OS

[Worriedman]

TN Alcoholic Beverage Commission doesn't have staff to go after $1M in fines

Alcoholic beverage unit blames low staff

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20091020/NEWS0201/910...

By Chris Echegaray • THE TENNESSEAN • October 20, 2009

The Tennessee Alcoholic Beverage Commission has yet to collect $1 million in outstanding citations from violators across the state because it does not have enough staff to go after the money

A state audit released Monday cited the commission's failure to collect fines from citations, noted a lack of background checks for liquor-by-the-drink permits and stressed the need for better record keeping.

The audit shows the commission did not collect all the money the state was owed for calendar years 2007 and 2008.

"Because of staff shortages we have not been able to collect,'' said Tennessee Alcoholic Beverage Commission Executive Director Danielle Elks.

When it's time for a license to be renewed, the commission sends a notice to the violator letting the business know whether there are fines to be paid. But the business is not required to pay those fines before getting its license renewed.

The audit recommends state lawmakers change that and require the payment of the fines before licenses are renewed, and the commission's management said it supports that approach

Link no longer works, but:

One can search the ABC's meetings, and will find no mention in the last several years of fines for 50% violations.

More like this:

http://www.tennessee.gov/abc/July%20Minutes%20091509.pdf

A. ASHLEY ANNE STAFFORD

On February 9, 2009, TABC Agent Mike Cawthon observed the Respondent sell an alcoholic beverage to the nineteen year-old confidential operative at establishment doing business as Music City Event Center, in Nashville, Tennessee. An administrative citation was issued, and remains unresolved at the time of this agenda.

Discussion/Action Taken:

Ashley Anne Stafford was present at the meeting. Assistant Director Carolyn Smith stated that Ms. Stafford was issued an administrative citation on February 9, 2009. Assistant Director Smith requested SAC Cawthon explained the events that led up to the issuance of this administrative citation. SAC Cawthon testified that he accompanied the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department to a club on 8th Avenue South in Nashville known as Nocturnal. SAC Cawthon stated that there was a Vanderbilt fraternity club at the Nocturnal Club. SAC Cawthon testified that when he entered the club, there appeared to be numerous individuals with possession of beer and/or liquor who appeared to be under aged. He testified that he started checking ID’s. He testified that they arrested approximately 15 at the club. SAC Cawthon testified that he requested to see Mr. Benjamin Crain’s ID. SAC Cawthon testified that Mr. Crain presented him a counterfeit ID from Maine. SAC Cawthon testified that he told Mr. Crain that he wanted to see his real ID. This was just after he had purchased a beer from Ms. Ashley Stafford. SAC Cawthon stated that he then took Ms. Stafford and Mr. Crain outside and issued Ms. Stafford an administrative citation for selling to a minor. SAC Cawthon testified that Ms. Stafford has a server permit. SAC Cawthon asked Ms. Stafford why she did not check the ID of Mr. Crain and she stated that was the business of the security personnel at the front entrance. SAC Cawthon testified that he told Ms. Stafford that that was not their job and it was her responsibility to make sure that the customers she was serving was of age.

MINUTES FOR THE JULY 21, 2009 COMMISSION MEETING – PAGE 2

Assistant Director requested that the Commission uphold the administrative citation that was issued to Ms. Stafford.

Chairman Jones stated that he wants the establishments to be responsible for the sales to minors and more of the burden of responsibility to be placed on the establishment. Director Elks stated that there will be administrative action taken against the licensee. Director Elks stated that the charges have not been brought against the licensee as yet, because there are pending additional investigations for other violations of the law.

Chairman Jones asked Ms. Stafford if she was aware that this is an administrative citation and that she can pay the citation and not risk losing her server permit. Chairman Jones stated that if her server permit is taken, that it would be eight years (with a criminal conviction) before she could become a server again.

Director Elks stated that there would be a payment of $250 to be made. Upon payment of the administrative citation, this matter would be considered closed. Director Elks stated that there would not be criminal action taken against Ms. Stafford if the citation was paid.

You will note in the minutes of the meeting that no "food audits" were mentioned, no fines for violations discussed, check the few meeting minute post you can find, you will find no mention for the years '07-'09 of any prosecutions for 50% violations, and no mention of fines for same.

[Guest Doc44]

Will be glad to collect owed fines for 20% of monies collected.... if Phil will write me a note to let me carry in bars.

Doc44

[Worriedman]

Proof?

No.

Found the original post where link was:

Guns-in-restaurants bill advances in House | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

"Although Tennessee code does not define bars, there are dozens of restaurants across the state that do not meet the minimum food service requirement. In response, establishments are paying a monthly fine to the state’s Alcoholic Beverage Commission."

Perhaps just an echo, but here's another:

TN bill would ban guns in bars, allow them in restaurants | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

Tennessee law says all businesses that serve liquor are restaurants and must make more than 50 percent of their take from food sales. But many restaurants across the state do not meet that requirement.Those establishments pay a monthly fine to the state's Alcoholic Beverage Commission. The fine is a pittance compared with the money made serving liquor.

So, maybe these are ones that simply have been paying a fine since the last rounds of audits. I have no idea.

I'd say if ABC lists their accounting stats anywhere, would be only way to know for sure what they officially collect.

Of course, any under the table money for NOT auditing a given restaurant wouldn't be included, eh?

- OS

It is a shell game, they do not collect fines for 50% violations, and they have not done "food audits" in years and years.

And as a arm of the State, their records are open to the public.

I can find no record of issuance of fines for 50% violations, but then there is very little information on net, though I can get the HCP database!

[Oh Shoot]

It is a shell game, they do not collect fines for 50% violations, and they have not done "food audits" in years and years.

And as a arm of the State, their records are open to the public.

I can find no record of issuance of fines for 50% violations, but then there is very little information on net, though I can get the HCP database!

I assumed there was basis in fact, since it was mentioned in the articles.

Otherwise, I admit I have no idea.

Yes, I certainly know you can't believe everything (or much of) what you read in a newspaper.

- OS

[GKar]

I can't find it easily, but in the other restaurant bill thread I posted a link and excerpt from a recent story appearing the Tennessean and elsewhere (Kpt Times-News) describing how the ABC had recently taken a couple of token actions closing two true bars in the Nashville area due to their incredibly low % food sales (<5%, IIRC). In that article, an ABC spokesman relayed that they had been utilizing "enforcement disgression" and NOT conducting such audits and fines pursuant to an ABC BoD decision back in the 90s to do so. Should places have been paying monthly fines, etc? Yep. Have they? Nope, cause ABC has turned a blind eye OF THEIR OWN VOLITION, and NOT at the direction of or with the sanction of the legislature. In that the ABC reports to no other govt agency (only loosely to the Gov), the legislature decided to disband the current ABC and look at reforming them under either the TBI or the Dept of Revenue - ya think either one of those agencies will just walk away from fining places all the way to h**l and back??

Frankly, I hope the "new" ABC comes out with blood in their eyes, and gives all these places that have gotten a free ride for the last several years absolute living h**l. Proper and appropriate payback, I say. Hate it for 'em...

[Worriedman]

I assumed there was basis in fact, since it was mentioned in the articles.

Otherwise, I admit I have no idea.

Yes, I certainly know you can't believe everything (or much of) what you read in a newspaper.

- OS

Give the fact that the Tennessean backs Rayburn and Adam Dread at every chance, giving them free publicity, is there any doubt that they might publish half truths and outright misinformation?

I suggest they will print anything to back their liberal agenda, the facts be damned!

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I can't find it easily, but in the other restaurant bill thread I posted a link and excerpt from a recent story appearing the Tennessean and elsewhere (Kpt Times-News) describing how the ABC had recently taken a couple of token actions closing two true bars in the Nashville area due to their incredibly low % food sales (<5%, IIRC). In that article, an ABC spokesman relayed that they had been utilizing "enforcement disgression" and NOT conducting such audits and fines pursuant to an ABC BoD decision back in the 90s to do so. Should places have been paying monthly fines, etc? Yep. Have they? Nope, cause ABC has turned a blind eye OF THEIR OWN VOLITION, and NOT at the direction of or with the sanction of the legislature. In that the ABC reports to no other govt agency (only loosely to the Gov), the legislature decided to disband the current ABC and look at reforming them under either the TBI or the Dept of Revenue - ya think either one of those agencies will just walk away from fining places all the way to h**l and back??

Frankly, I hope the "new" ABC comes out with blood in their eyes, and gives all these places that have gotten a free ride for the last several years absolute living h**l. Proper and appropriate payback, I say. Hate it for 'em...

My guess is the TBI is hoping they do NOT get saddled with this responsibility. It would be more appropriate for the Dept of Rev to handle IMO.

[Guest JeepJockey]

Response from Mike McDonald Democrat

Dear Chad,

Thank you very much for your email. I will vote to override the

Governor's veto of the handgun carry permit bill.

Anytime I may be of assistance to you or your family, please do not

hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Mike McDonald

State Representative

Haven't heard from Diane Black yet but I don't think we have to worry about her position.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I think the only remaining question (for me) is, When will the law go into effect once the override happens? Some (Senator Jackson's office) have stated July 1st, but the bill seems to read as "immediately upon passage, the public welfare blah blah blah". I am pretty sure the July 1st deal is a mistake because that is what was in the original bill but amendments have changed that along the way.

[Worriedman]

It will take effect the day it is signed by the Speakers (both), the original Bill was slated for July 1, 2010, but the Amendment states "as soon as it becomes Law".