Snakes - a spinoff thread

[Mike.357]

Gator's are nasty. when we lived in Boca there was a canal not thirty yards from our condo. Gator's of all sizes in there at one time or another. got chased by one out in the glades once when I was fishing by a boat ramp. The thing was huge. I am guessing easily 300 pounds.

The worst reptile I ever saw were these freaking huge lizards that came out of the canal at the golf course I worked at. They would come up and sun themselves on one of the golf cart bridges. They were easily 5 feet long. And they did not want to move until they wanted to move.

[Guest Jamie]

The worst reptile I ever saw were these freaking huge lizards that came out of the canal at the golf course I worked at. They would come up and sun themselves on one of the golf cart bridges. They were easily 5 feet long. And they did not want to move until they wanted to move.

Most likely a common green iguana... I used to have one, and he got to be over 5 feet long. They can get up to 7 feet, and weigh 20 pounds. I also raised a spiny tail... a Ctenosaura... like this one:

Ended up donating him to the Nashville Zoo once he reached more than 3 ft. long and about 8-9 pounds. He's probably still there, alive and well, since they live to be more than 25 years old. They are supposed to be the fastest lizard in the world, and mine at least was one of the worst tempered. ( I still have the chewed-up gloves to prove it. )

We currently have two bearded dragons and a pair of Uromastyx... oh, and the various fence lizards, skinks, and snakes outside.

(The dragons and Uros are in tanks indoors. )

P.S. A green iguana looks like this:

J.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Jamie

[Mike.357]

yes an Iguana. At least that what people said they were. I was amazed at how adept to swimming they were once they woud go back into the water.

[Guest Jamie]

Yeah, the two places a green iguana is the happiest is in a tree or in the water. They don't care so much for flat open ground, though they'll go there to forage if there's food to be had.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

I am sure glad I got there when I did as no other adult knew the difference and like I said they call them corn snakes there but it looked identical to OS's pic except the order of the bands. Yellow WAS meeting Red......really bad ju ju as I dont think there is a cure for a coral bite or at least wasnt then that I recall and they had that snake all riled up.

For what it's worth, a coral snake is a rear fanged snake... it's fangs are in the back of it's mouth, and rather short. And if I recall correctly, their fangs are also grooved instead of being hollow like a rattler or copperhead. Also, they are pretty small snakes, generally being no more than a couple of feet long at most, usually.

What all this means is that they pretty much have to bite down and chew to deliver the poison... and generally someplace like the web between your finger and thumb. They can't really just strike the same as the other venomous snakes here can.

So although they are extremely poisonous, you really have to screw up bad to get a lethal bite from one.

J.

[Guest crotalus01]

There is antivenin available for all the venomous species found in the US - not that you are likely to need any for a Coral snake as they almost never inject venom when they bite (and they almost never bite).

Contrary to the map of Corlal snake ranges, they have been found in East TN and central MS. Extremely unusual but they have been.

No reason to be afraid of snakes in this country - coppers and moccasins arent that venomous, coral snakes are very rare and rattlers are evident on sight in 99% of species...

[Guest crotalus01]

Jamie, Spineys are notoriously bad tempered lizards. Uromastyx are cool - you can tell if it is male or female by looking at the base of the tail, the males have these elongated waxy plugs that look like insect eggs plugging the pores under the tail. They are used as scent markers to attract females.

[Guest Jamie]

coppers and moccasins arent that venomous..

They are venomous enough to put your ass in the hospital, or to kill a small child or dog.

Plus it's expensive to get the bites treated... and I've got the $600 vet bill... plus the dead snake... to prove it.

( The necrosis - flesh dying - from the venom can also leave some pretty ugly scars, or possibly even cost you a finger or toe. )

Edit: Here's a pic of one of our dog's foot, 2 years after the bite. That dark crescent-shaped scar is where she was bitten... and no, there was no cutting on it or anything of the like. It looks a lot worse in person.

J.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest Jamie]

Jamie, Spineys are notoriously bad tempered lizards. Uromastyx are cool - you can tell if it is male or female by looking at the base of the tail, the males have these elongated waxy plugs that look like insect eggs plugging the pores under the tail. They are used as scent markers to attract females.

Yep, quite aware of all that. ( It's the same for Bearded Dragons and Iguanas as well. )Didn't know about the spiny's bad temper when I got it though... the pet shop that sold it to me had no idea exactly what it was or really anything at all about it. So it was certainly a learning experience. ( Never had an attack lizard before... :D )

Speaking of mysteries though, one of our Uros is quite a puzzlement... You see, when we got him, we thought he was a juvenile Saharan red. He's got the right colors, size, etc.... Looks just like any picture of one you can find.

The problem is, we've had him 4 years now, and other than putting on a little weight and very little length, he still looks exactly like he did the day we brought him home.

Decidedly weird.

No one I've spoken to about it has any clue.

J.

[Guest crotalus01]

I just said they were not that venomous, meaning to a healthy adult. If you go to the hospital for a copperhead bite you are wasting your money and the doctors time - they are gonna charge you $500 for an ibuprofen and send you on your way.

A moccasin bite may well be a good idea to head to the hospital but its probably not gonna kill you.

I used to raise hot herps. I have had 2 copperhead bites, 4 Mangrove bites, 1 rattler scratch. Only one I went to the hospital for was the rattler - that scratch was worse than a full blown copperhead bite by a long shot.

Having said that, none of them are something you want to have happen. Dogs and kids have completely different protocols to deal with envenomation and the above does not apply to them.

[Guest crotalus01]

So your Uro is just not growing? Like a midget lizard? Weird. Assuming it is getting proper uva/uvb and you occasionally dust its food with a calcium supplement.

[Guest Jamie]

If you go to the hospital for a copperhead bite you are wasting your money and the doctors time - they are gonna charge you $500 for an ibuprofen and send you on your way.

Given what I saw the bite do to 3 of my dogs, and a couple of other folks I know previous to that... I'll go to the E.R., thanks.

By the way... if you're bitten by an adult copperhead, there's a very good chance it'll be a "dry" bite... meaning they don't necessarily inject any venom. The youngsters though, have no such restraint.

So in the end, a person is probably going to be better off if bitten by an adult copperhead that's in the 3-4 ft. range than one that's 18 inches long and still has a yellow tail. ( Which is what we encountered here. )

J.

[Guest Jamie]

So your Uro is just not growing? Like a midget lizard? Weird. Assuming it is getting proper uva/uvb and you occasionally dust its food with a calcium supplement.

Yup, he's getting all of that, same as the other one, and same as ( well, not exactly the same, but you know what I mean ) the beardies.

So yeah, we've kind'a come to the conclusion that we just have a Dwarf Uro.

I should mention that these aren't our first lizards... we've had others before them, and really kicked ourselves for missing the chance at a collared lizard. ( We were all out of tank space at the time. Space in general, for that matter. )

Here's a couple of pics of him, from '06. I'll have to take a couple of new ones later:

He still looks just like this, right now today, only very slightly larger.

Edit: I just checked our chart, and he's 150 grams and 10 inches long now... so although his weight has effectively doubled, he's only grown an inch in 4 years.

J.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Jamie

[Oh Shoot]

For what it's worth, a coral snake is a rear fanged snake... it's fangs are in the back of it's mouth, and rather short....

I'm afraid that is a common urban legend.

Coral snake has fangs in the front.

I can point you to any number of references but it's the fact.

You're correct that they are shorter and grooved. They also are always erect, not folded back like pit viper fangs.

The biggest difference is that the venom is not "pumped" but "secreted", and doesn't happen instantly as with pit vipers, so it must hold on for a little bit, rather than a lightening fast strike to deliver it.

There is antivenin available for all the venomous species found in the US -...

There is, but no coral snake antivenin has been produced in some time, and the current stocks all expire this year. There is no further production currently planned. And according to FDA, that current expiration date has been extended from the old stock that had a previous expiration date.

Expiration Date Lot 4030026 - North American Coral Snake Antivenin (Micrurus fulvius) (Equine)

Contrary to the map of Corlal snake ranges, they have been found in East TN,,,

Color me dubious on that one.

- OS

Edited May 16, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

I'm afraid that is a common urban legend.

Coral snake has fangs in the front.

I can point you to any number of references but it's the fact.

You're correct that they are shorter and grooved. They also are always erect, not folded back like pit viper fangs.

The biggest difference is that the venom is not "pumped" but "secreted", and doesn't happen instantly as with pit vipers, so it must hold on for a little bit, rather than a lightening fast strike to deliver it.

- OS

Yeah, my mistake on the fangs... it would've been closer to say they are more rearward than the pit vipers around here.

Here's a pic of a coral's skull... the fangs are evident.

Corals are one of those species I've never paid much attention to, due to there not being many of 'em around here.

Who knows, I might get one helluva surprise one of these days, grubbing around the brush and sticks.

I also haven't spent much time studying Gila Monsters either, for the same reason.

By the way folks, most of the info I've posted here and on the other thread is either first-hand experience, or was learned while hanging out with the guys and girls at the Nashville Zoo's reptile house, before they moved to their current location ( I used to spend a lot of time there, or on the phone with 'em, especially when I had the spiny tailed iguana). And since it's coming from memory, not Wikipedia, I will have to revise and correct sometimes, on the species I don't deal with regularly, as reminders come along and the memory gets jogged.

Oh, and that Gila monster I mentioned earlier? Their dental set-up is similar to a coral snakes. And as far as I know, they're the only poisons lizard in the U.S.

J.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest Jamie]

Color me dubious on that one.

- OS

One thing to keep in mind here is that thanks to human intervention, some of these critter's current ranges are far different than the natural range those maps you're so fond of might dictate.

For instance, iguanas and some boas aren't native to Florida... but they're there now just the same.

Also, with the way things are trucked and shipped around these days, it's not hard for a snake, lizard, etc. to hitch a ride, and discover a whole new place that they can survive just fine, but had no previous way of getting to.

Then there's also the fact that some of those "official" ranges were mapped out years ago, and may not have been all that accurate to begin with...

So in the end, even though you don't have water moccasins or coral snakes on your particular mountain top, don't mean they aren't to be found in some of the other areas around you.

J.

[Guest mosinon]

I'd like to get some snakey action on my small preserve. The mice built a nice nest in my mower out of cigarette butts and so forth.

[Guest Jamie]

Sounds like you need a care package full'a Rat Snakes, Mosinon.

I can only imagine the hilarity that would ensue when that particular box was opened...

J.

[Oh Shoot]

So in the end, even though you don't have water moccasins or coral snakes on your particular mountain top, don't mean they aren't to be found in some of the other areas around you. ...

Bounty upped to $100 for coral snakes.

$5,000 for a cougar.

$25,000 for a bigfoot.

Offer not valid for bkelm, who probably has some coral snakes over at the zoo, maybe a cougar, too.

- OS

Edited May 16, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

Bounty upped to $100 for coral snakes.

$5,000 for a cougar.

$25,000 for a bigfoot.

- OS

Coral snake would go for somewhere around $1000 on the pet trade's black market. Same for a Cottonmouth.

I dunno what a cougar would go for, but five grand may be a bit much...

As for bigfoot... I'm pretty sure I could get a lot more than that for a live specimen. A LOT more. ( Hell, the fake ones go for what, $50,000? )

Anyway, I don't care to get involved in the illegal pet trade. Especially given some of the things I've heard about TWRA officers.

So I guess you're stuck with getting out and about in some of the more secluded spots, and seeing what you can turn up on your own. Who knows, you too may get quite a shock.

BTW... How I first got involved with the Nashville Zoo people had to do with a robbery... er, snake napping... theft? of several poisonous snakes. Among those being a big ol' Gaboon Viper.

Funny, but for some reason most of the officers involved weren't really in too much of a hurry to find the "evidence".

J.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Jamie

[Oh Shoot]

...So I guess you're stuck with getting out and about in some of the more secluded spots, and seeing what you can turn up on your own. Who knows, you too may get quite a shock. ...

Well, it IS true that ranges of critters certainly change, and they don't consult maps to do it.

Just look at fire ants.

Global warming means there'll be iguanas in Maine before long I guess.

- OS

[Guest Jamie]

Well, it IS true that ranges of critters certainly change, and they don't consult maps to do it.

Just look at fire ants.

Global warming means there'll be iguanas in Maine before long I guess.

- OS

If it don't stop raining soon, I'm certainly going to start looking out for some of the more tropical species, like Anacondas and such...

J.

[JAB]

SNAKES OF TENNESSEE

Yep, that is the non-TWRA, non-legal '.org' site I was talking about in the OP.

Far as I know it's just under this catchall statute:

70-4-102. Illegal taking, possession or destruction of wildlife — Penalty for violations. —

(a) It is unlawful for any person to hunt, kill, trap, ensnare, or destroy, or to attempt to hunt, kill, trap, ensnare, or destroy, or to have in such person's possession, any form of wildlife except subject to the restrictions and by the means and devices and at the time prescribed by this title.

( Any violations of the proclamations and rules and regulations proclaimed by the wildlife resources commission are punishable as provided in this title, and the illegal taking or possession of each bird, animal or fish constitutes a separate offense.

© A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor.

[Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 1, 4 (Williams, §§ 5178.30, 5178.33); Acts 1961, ch. 198, § 2; Acts 1974, ch. 481, § 21; 1982, ch. 738, § 15; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-405, 51-412; Acts 1998, ch. 909, § 1; 2003, ch. 61, § 2.]

------

- OS

As I posted back in an April thread:

____________________________________________________________

Current TN. wildlife law.

Right out of the 2009/2010 TWRA hunting guide, pg.12 states.......

The taking and/or illegal possession of

hawks, owls, songbirds, endangered species

or any other species for which a season is not

set (e.g. snakes) is prohibited.

But there is also this (taken from Michie's):

70-4-115. Destruction and disposal of wildlife — Permit — Penalty. —

(a) The owner of lands may destroy any wild animals, wild birds, or wild fowl when such wild animals, wild birds, or wild fowl are destroying property upon such lands. Any person, before destroying any big game under the conditions provided for in this section, is required to obtain a permit for destroying such big game. Such permit shall be issued by an officer of the wildlife resources agency.

so as snakes aren't 'big game', it would seem (and IANAL) that no permit would be needed or required to destroy a snake in such a situation. There is also this, which allows for even endangered or threatened species to be 'dealt with' (albeit with a permit):

70-8-106. Management programs — Exceptions to regulations. —

(e) Upon good cause shown, and where necessary to alleviate damage to property or to protect human health and safety, endangered or threatened species may be removed, captured or destroyed but only pursuant to a permit issued by the executive director and by or under the supervision of an agent of the agency; provided, that endangered or threatened species may be removed, captured, or destroyed without permit by any person in emergency situations involving an immediate threat to human life. Provisions for removal, capture, or destruction of nongame wildlife for the purposes set forth above shall be set forth in regulations issued by the executive director pursuant to § 70-8-104(a).

Are there any snakes in TN that are considered endangered or threatened? Of course, this doesn't even consider 'self defense' situations.

[JAB]

I just said they were not that venomous, meaning to a healthy adult. If you go to the hospital for a copperhead bite you are wasting your money and the doctors time - they are gonna charge you $500 for an ibuprofen and send you on your way.

Well, different people have different experiences and react differently. One of my wife's co-workers was bitten by a copperhead while working in her garden last year. The hospital certainly didn't just give her an ibuprofen and send her on her way and it wasn't just a minor thing. Her arm (where she was bitten) swelled to two or three times it's normal size and turned black in places. The docs told her that it could take six months or more to return to normal and that even then there might be permanent neuromuscular damage.

I don't know how my body would react to a copperhead bite. It could be just a minor annoyance, as your experiences indicate. It could also be severe pain, permanent damage or even death for all I know. If I see a copperhead on our property, I will assume that the latter is more likely and act accordingly. If I do get bitten, I'll take my chances with wasting the doc's time. Heck, even bee stings can be lethal to some people - luckily I am not one of them.

[Guest jackdm3]

I'd like to get some snakey action on my small preserve. The mice built a nice nest in my mower out of cigarette butts and so forth.

Stop smoking. Problem solved.