military pistol ammo

[Mike.357]

If this is the wrong place for it please move it on over.

Anyway I saw something on the boob tube today and for whatever reason this question came to mind.

What type of handgun ammo is used in the military. Who manufacters it, what kind is it(ie: fmj, jhp, etc...), and what calibers are supplied?

[Guest Mugster]

Most all military ammo is full metal jacket. Most is supplied by either winchester or federal. M882 ball for the 9mm M9 uses a 124gr copper jacketed bullet loaded pretty close to the SAAMI pressure limit. Probably WWB in the 124gr variety is so close to it, the difference isn't worth mentioning.

The old 1911 .45 ball round used a 230gr full metal jacketed bullet at 830 +/- 15 fps, at 15 feet from the muzzle. CCI blazer brass 230gr duplicates it very well.

[Guest Glock19Fan]

Actually, IIRC, 9mm NATO is equivalent to 9mm +P+ ammunition, and is somewhere between 1200-1300 FPS depending on the barrel length. This is faster than any commercial 115 grain load, and is 9 grains heavier.

This may or may not make a difference penetration wise, but with reguards to terminal performance (temporary and permanant cavitation), there is little to no difference at all in commercial and military cartridges.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Actually, IIRC, 9mm NATO is equivalent to 9mm +P+ ammunition.

+1

NATO exceeds SAAMI pressure limit.

[Mike.357]

Why aren't hollow points used? Seems to me if you are using your sidearm that it has gotten very ugly and dropping a guy with less shots would be a premium???

[Guest Dusty Rhodes]

Wouldn't that be a violation of the Geneva Convention?

[Marswolf]

Hollow points are designed to expand causing a larger wound channel and, very importantly, stop before exiting and causing harm to individuals behind the bad guy. That's important in the civilian world. FMJs penetrate better and you really don't care if you take out the BG and his buddy behind him with one shot.

[Marswolf]

Wouldn't that be a violation of the Geneva Convention?

The Geneva Convention has nothing to do with the choice of not using HPs.

That came out of the Hague Accords. The no HP deal is from the 1899 accords, which we did not sign.

But we did sign the 1907 accords that say that we wont use rounds intended to create unnecessary suffering.

But in 1985 the JAG ruled that expanding point ammo is permissible in counterterrorist operations.

The reason we don't use HPs on a normal basis is that FMJs are a better round for military use.

[Guest dotsun]

That's good info, I always thought it was because of The Geneva Conventions, too.

[analog_kidd]

I've always heard that FMJ is preferred because it may NOT kill the enemy. Human nature makes us (them) want to save our buddy. If you take one guy out and kill him, his buddy continues on after you. If you wound him, his buddy helps him to safety. You have effectively taken out two men with one bullet.

May or may not be true, but is sounds like a good strategy to me.

[Marswolf]

I've always heard that FMJ is preferred because it may NOT kill the enemy. Human nature makes us (them) want to save our buddy. If you take one guy out and kill him, his buddy continues on after you. If you wound him, his buddy helps him to safety. You have effectively taken out two men with one bullet.

May or may not be true, but is sounds like a good strategy to me.

Having been on the receiving end of that argument, I'd say that it's true. We had two of us wounded. It wasn't a matter that if we had been killed, our buddies would have kept after them. We were significantly outnumbered. But the pain and bleeding definitely slowed us down in getting to an extraction point.

[Guest gcrookston]

The Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 had all kinds of accords to it to make the grim business of war more humane. Gasses and airborne projectiles from balloons, saw backed pioneer bayonets, exploding and inciderary projectiles. Most signatories have ultimately ignored them. If you pick up a box of military match ammo it will quite plainly state "not for combat use", yet this is the stuff we issue to our marksmen in forward combat zones. Interesting idea trying to make rules for such as this. What a waste of paper.

[saintsfanbrian]

Most laws are a waste of paper. I think the original 10 would encompass just about everything we need today but the government has bloated.

[Smith]

There were some JAG rulings on this not too long ago and the military was adamant about not allowing our guys to use HP. It has nothing to do with humane treatment, rather a desire to inflict more damage with a single bullet. A .223 may pass through and hit one or two more combatants thus increasing the effectiveness of the shot. And as stated before you occupy at least 3 guys with a wounded soldier and only one with a dead one, the dead one.

[Marswolf]

Back at least as early as the Civil War, explosive rounds existed. They weren't used a lot. The timing was tricky and there is one example I know of the shooter getting hit in his cartridge box and the rounds going off on his side. Messy....

But again, the military uses FMJs because they make sense for the application. This HP thing comes up fairly often. Just have to beat it with a stick to make it go away.

Perfectly understandable confusion.

[Mike.357]

Lets see now, FMJ is the preferred method of killing an enemy. JHP is too , whats the word I want, deadly maybe.

While I admit I do not have first hand knowledge of war but isn't inflicting pain and decimation on the enemy kind of the point of the whole thing?

Hard to buy into hollow points being to extreme for war.

[Im Neero]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a combat zone where it is much more likely that your enemy is wearing body armor wouldn't FMJ have a clear advantage over hollow point ammunition?

[Marswolf]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a combat zone where it is much more likely that your enemy is wearing body armor wouldn't FMJ have a clear advantage over hollow point ammunition?

Yes.......

[Mike.357]

Nero and Mars pretty well explained it then.

[DaveTN]

While I admit I do not have first hand knowledge of war but isn't inflicting pain and decimation on the enemy kind of the point of the whole thing?

Hard to buy into hollow points being to extreme for war.

Trying to make sense of what the government does will only make your head hurt. You are talking about a military that replaced the .45ACP with a POS 9mm and the 7.62 NATO with a lame azz .223 that won’t even stop the enemy from firing. I wonder how many more of our troops will have to die before someone with some ballistic sense steps in and ends this.

[DMark]

There is also a concern about feeding issues with anything other than FMJ. Ammo in a mag also gets banged around alot while in the field or outside the wire..., FMJ seems to hold up better to rough handling.

Having said that - - - "Special Folks" carrying "Special Arms" are know to load "Special Ammo" produced for them by "Special Makers."

[TNRobocop]

All of the 9mm Ball we issue are made by Winchester and marked WCC on the headstamp.

The 12ga is commercial 00B by Federal packaged in brown military marked 5rd boxes.

The duty ammo we use on the base for stateside use only is military issue hollowpoints for the M9's.

The .308 and .223 ammo come from LC as far as all of the ones I have seen in the last two years.

[jaysouth]

I doubt that M-882 is even +P.

In my Sig 226 over a chronograph, I can't get WCC 00 or WCC 02 to go 1200 fps.

Best speed on just one round was 1191 fps.

What am I missing? This is the same speed envelope as WW white box.

[Guest Mugster]

I doubt that M-882 is even +P.

In my Sig 226 over a chronograph, I can't get WCC 00 or WCC 02 to go 1200 fps.

Best speed on just one round was 1191 fps.

What am I missing? This is the same speed envelope as WW white box.

You're not missing anything...its not over pressure ammo. Winchester M-882 is very close to WWB 124gr ball. I usually average around 1115ish from a BHP depending on the temp.