Shooting another person's class III

[Glenn]

I have noticed several posts that mention that class III items must be in the licensed owners possession at all times. Does this mean it is not legal to shoot an item owned by another person even if they are present? Forgive me if this is a stupid question but I know nothing about these laws.

Glenn

[Reservoir Dog]

You can shoot someone's class III. No problem there. The registered party just has to be present with the NFA item.

[Glenn]

Thanks. I thought that must be the case but can't be too careful.

Glenn

[gunsablazin]

Friends with machineguns are better than regular friends too! I sold both mine several years ago, and get my "fix" with a buddies M16 every so often.

[Guest drv2fst]

Follow up question: Do you need to carry a copy of the approved form with you when you go shoot your class III gun? I always do but often feel that I am just being paranoid.

[Glenn]

Friends with machineguns are better than regular friends too! I sold both mine several years ago, and get my "fix" with a buddies M16 every so often.

And friends with machine guns that have lots of other friends with machine guns and invite you to shoot them are even better.

Glenn

[TGO David]

Follow up question: Do you need to carry a copy of the approved form with you when you go shoot your class III gun? I always do but often feel that I am just being paranoid.

There are conflicting reports on this one, but I carry my Form with me both as a regular size, laminated copy in my range bag and as a reduced size laminated copy in the pistol grip storage compartment of my AR itself. Why?

Even if the BATFE doesn't require you to have the Form on your person, we are all too aware of the fact that police officers simply cannot know every aspect of every law on the books. Further, while some officers are enthusiasts just like you and I, there are still others who do not care much about guns and then others who simply do not like them at all. I carry my Form for the chance that an officer is present and inquires about the legality of my weapon.

I'd rather be able to show him "ze papers" on the spot than have him temporarily confiscate the item (or detain me) until I can obtain them from the safe deposit box.

Just makes life less complicated.

[kb4ns]

There are conflicting reports on this one, but I carry my Form with me both as a regular size, laminated copy in my range bag and as a reduced size laminated copy in the pistol grip storage compartment of my AR itself. Why?

Even if the BATFE doesn't require you to have the Form on your person, we are all too aware of the fact that police officers simply cannot know every aspect of every law on the books. Further, while some officers are enthusiasts just like you and I, there are still others who do not care much about guns and then others who simply do not like them at all. I carry my Form for the chance that an officer is present and inquires about the legality of my weapon.

I'd rather be able to show him "ze papers" on the spot than have him temporarily confiscate the item (or detain me) until I can obtain them from the safe deposit box.

Just makes life less complicated.

Very well said. In the event you had an encounter with an LEO, there are so many ways it could go. Regardless, I don't think you'd ultimately end up dealing with any charges or anything, but it could become quite the hassle.

I've never encountered anyone with an NFA weapon on-duty, but if somehow I did, I know I'd expect to see "ze papers".

[Magiccarpetrides]

If your firing a machinegun or a shortened shotgun you better keep a form on you at all times. I was thinking I read somewhere that you were required to show a copy of it if asked by a LEO and I have been asked too many times to remember. So as the ol saying goes "better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it".

[kb4ns]

I was thinking I read somewhere that you were required to show a copy of it if asked by a LEO...

TCA 39-17-1302 lists prohibited weapons (which includes NFA items). The defense provided for those with an approved form is-

(7) Involved acquisition or possession of a sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, machine gun or firearm silencer that is validly registered to the person under federal law in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Records. A person who acquires or possesses a firearm registered as required by this subdivision ((7) shall retain proof of registration.

The gray area, IMHO, is defining "retain". Does this mean that you must retain the form in your actual possession when you possess the NFA item? Does it mean you can retain it in your safe at home while you're at the range with the gun? I'd rather play it safe and keep a copy with me. You can get a copy made for a few pennies at Kinkos and it's definitely worth the peace of mind to me. There may be a federal law that addresses the issue more specifically, but I'm not that well versed with federal law on NFA items.

[Reservoir Dog]

I am not sure if there is law specifically for that question, but this is straight from the ATF website:

Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her? Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Firearms

I noticed that they do not provide a relevant USC or CFR cite to support this answer like they do for most of the other answers. However, I would take ATF's "suggestion" to heart, and carry a photocopy with you whenever you have the weapon. As others have said, it will makes things less complicated.

[Guest drv2fst]

Well, I guess I am not "just paranoid" after all (at least on this issue). Thanks for those very clear replies. I'll keep bring copies with me at all time. As already stated it just makes life less complicated.

[Jasongar8]

You're not paranoid at all. Carrying a copy of your form 1 or form 4 with you is just a good idea. It will save you alot of time in the long run if you have one. Also some public ranges ask to see the form before they allow you to shoot. I keep mine in the bag that I carry the gun or suppressor in.

[Guest crotalus01]

Just to clarify (as this has been a point of contention on various NFA forums) -you do have to have your F4 with you when you are in possession of your NFA weapon. You are NOT required by law to show it to anyone other than an agent of the BATFE. The reasoning behind this (or so I have been told) is that the F4 is legally a tax document, and legally you cannot be required to show a tax document to anyone other than an agent of the Fed department that regulates the item.

That is the law. NOW, would I refuse to show a LEO my F4? Nope. Do I know anyone who would refuse to show a LEO their Form 4? Nope. When you invest the kind of time and money that even "cheap" NFA toys cost, you don't want to have them confiscated, even temporarily.

[Guest drv2fst]

Well stated. Technicality on one side, practicality on the other. Practicality wins.

[Jasongar8]

You are NOT required by law to show it to anyone other than an agent of the BATFE. The reasoning behind this (or so I have been told) is that the F4 is legally a tax document

I have been told that an IRS agent can require you to show your form 1 or form 4 also. I have no idea why they would want to see it, but since they are the tax people and it is a tax paid document I guess it makes sense.

[railfancwb]

I have been told that if you and a buddy are at a range shooting your NFA item, and you are overcome by a pressing need to visit the restroom, you had better take the [unloaded] NFA item with you. Otherwise, you can be charged with failure to maintain control of the item and your buddy can be charged with posessing an unlicensed (untaxed?) NFA item.

[TNZ71]

I have been told that if you and a buddy are at a range shooting your NFA item, and you are overcome by a pressing need to visit the restroom, you had better take the [unloaded] NFA item with you. Otherwise, you can be charged with failure to maintain control of the item and your buddy can be charged with posessing an unlicensed (untaxed?) NFA item.

OMG

[Jasongar8]

I have been told that if you and a buddy are at a range shooting your NFA item, and you are overcome by a pressing need to visit the restroom, you had better take the [unloaded] NFA item with you. Otherwise, you can be charged with failure to maintain control of the item and your buddy can be charged with posessing an unlicensed (untaxed?) NFA item.

That is stretching it a bit. I cant see anyone enforcing it in that way.

[kb4ns]

Well stated. Technicality on one side, practicality on the other. Practicality wins.

Exactly. There's no law requiring you to provide a defense to TCA 39-17-1302. If you refused to ever show your form to anyone other than an ATF agent and were locked up by local LE for violating 39-17-1302, you'd probably end up getting a conviction for a state felony as well as never seeing your weapon again. It'd be so much easier just to show the local LEO your form in the first place...

[Sidewinder]

TCA 39-17-1302 lists prohibited weapons (which includes NFA items). The defense provided for those with an approved form is-

The gray area, IMHO, is defining "retain". Does this mean that you must retain the form in your actual possession when you possess the NFA item? Does it mean you can retain it in your safe at home while you're at the range with the gun? I'd rather play it safe and keep a copy with me. You can get a copy made for a few pennies at Kinkos and it's definitely worth the peace of mind to me. There may be a federal law that addresses the issue more specifically, but I'm not that well versed with federal law on NFA items.

Not to hijack the thread... but, I wouldn't have any document like this printed on a public copying machine! They have hard drives, and store everything you copy... everything! Then the old copiers get sold to countries over seas, with all that data still on the hard drive! I wouldn't copy "anything" personal on a public copier!