Floods, contractors, and an HCP

[Guest Jamie]

A single-action in .22 mag will deal pretty well with most anything you're likely to encounter while cleaning up the mess from this flooding... and that includes 2 legged "critters".

Oh, and regarding snakes; they usually have a strike range of about 1/3 to 1/2 half their body length. So if you stay outside of that, you should have a decent amount of time to draw a bead and send it to reptile heaven. ( The average copperhead around my area is only about 3 ft. long. You have to be pretty close for one to get ya. )

No, you're not gonna have all day to do it, but try not to panic and also to remember the old saying "make haste slowly".

One last piece of advice... Always watch where you're about to put your hands, your feet, and your ass, and you'll never be snake bit. It's not until you get careless and stick some part of your anatomy in a place that you haven't looked first that the critters can get ya.

J.

[Oh Shoot]

... I'm working in the garden ... an angry copperhead isn't going to give me much time to draw, aim and fire...

It's a lot quicker to just step back out of the way.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

double post..site crawling

Oh well might as well mention:

90% of all the copperheads killed in TN, weren't copperheads.

99.9% of cottonmouth moccasins killed in TN, weren't cottonmouths.

And 100% of coral snakes killed in TN, weren't coral snakes.

- OS

Edited May 12, 2010 by OhShoot

[Hozzie]

In my experience as an HCP holder, I have both carried open and concealed and didn't have one person look at me sideways, crossways, or any other way when I was open carrying. I have one theory on why. Profiling. If you don't look dangerous, most people won't think your dangerous. I have open carried in Target, Walmart, Cracker Barrell and many other places that allowed it and didn't feel out of place or profiled. My friends say it is because I look like a cop and carry myself like it isn't a big deal. The gun is a natural part of my outfit, so I don't walk around checking it all of the time.

I think it comes down to not making a big deal out of it and looking like you have done it before. I think some people that open carry do so with a mentality of look at me. You can tell them a mile away (although I can't say I see a lot of people doing it).

I agree, open carry isn't appropriate in all cases, and common sense should apply. I get the whole it's my right no matter what argument, and agree, but in reality, we profile, and people make a decision based on what you look like. Right or wrong, it's the way it works.

I say if you don't feel comfortable open carrying around your house and yard, there is no way you will ever feel comfortable open carrying in public. If you don't feel comfortable, you shouldn't be open carrying, or even concealed carrying for that matter. If your neighbors don't like it, tough. It's your property and I don't see anything wrong with making a subtle statement about being armed.

I don't buy into the argument that it advertises you have guns. All it means is you have one gun, and that is probably enough to keep most people from attempting anything stupid.

My two cents.

[kb4ns]

I don't buy into the argument that it advertises you have guns. All it means is you have one gun, and that is probably enough to keep most people from attempting anything stupid.

Probably enough to keep most people from attempting anything stupid... when you're home. It sure sucks to be out on the town and come home to a ransacked house and no more guns...

Would it ever advertise anything? Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? I just know that I like a low profile regardless.

[monkeylizard]

In my experience as an HCP holder, I have both carried open and concealed and didn't have one person look at me sideways, crossways, or any other way when I was open carrying.

Surprisingly, that has been my experience this week. Except for the first guy that asked about looters, and a hardwood guy I've worked with before who said "I see ya got yer heater", nobody else has seemed to care.

[Guest Jamie]

double post..site crawling

Oh well might as well mention:

90% of all the copperheads killed in TN, weren't copperheads.

99.9% of cottonmouth moccasins killed in TN, weren't cottonmouths.

And 100% of coral snakes killed in TN, weren't coral snakes.

- OS

Yep... wish I had a nickle for every time I've seen some poor ol' rat snake or water snake mislabeled as something it most definitely wasn't.

Speaking of "mistaken identity of the reptilian kind", and of cleaning up messes outdoors, this should give y'all a giggle or three:

The LawDog files - "Oh, bugger"

J.

[JAB]

It's a lot quicker to just step back out of the way.

- OS

Well, obviously if I have the choice I will step back out of the way - then draw, aim and fire (sorry, I'm not taking the chance on stepping on the stupid thing the next time.) I'm not going 'hunting' snakes and obviously it would be different if I were on public land but I'm also not taking chances on getting bitten in my garden, etc.

A couple of years ago, before I started carrying a firearm around the yard, I was walking up our concrete driveway, minding my own business. There was a (fairly small, black) snake that had apparently been hiding in the grass near the end of the concrete and it struck at me as I walked by. I hadn't poked at it, aggravated it, stepped on it or even seen it before it struck. I just happened to be carrying/walking with a walking stick that I was working on (was actually walking up the driveway because I was headed toward the workshop) and managed to move it between me and the snake so it struck the stick, instead - and hard - before crawling away. Since I didn't see it until it was in the process of striking, I doubt I would have been able to step out of the way quickly enough and getting the walking stick in just the right spot was more luck than anything. IMO, the idea that 'if you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone' is a bunch of hooey. Maybe it was getting ready to shed its skin or something (their eyesight is clouded by the molting skin over them.) Honestly, I don't really care 'why' - my concern is the possible outcome of being bitten. That one probably wasn't poisonous but I still don't want bit, regardless. The fact that it struck unexpectedly, from cover, when I wasn't all that close to it (not to mention that I wouldn't have had time to draw much less shoot before it bit me) doesn't exactly give me a warm, fuzzy feeling about letting a poisonous snake hang around where I live.

double post..site crawling

Oh well might as well mention:

90% of all the copperheads killed in TN, weren't copperheads.

99.9% of cottonmouth moccasins killed in TN, weren't cottonmouths.

And 100% of coral snakes killed in TN, weren't coral snakes.

- OS

Yeah, I know - corn snakes look a lot like copperheads except corn snakes lack, well, the copper head.

Cottonmouth snakes can supposedly be identified by the fact that the inside of their mouth is white (hence the name.) However, many (most?) snakes supposedly have a white or whitish color to the inside of their mouth.

Water moccasins supposedly don't live in East Tennessee. That said, mountain lions have been spotted and photographed for years in states where they supposedly 'didn't live' (not talking about Tennessee.)

King snakes - which are actually said to kill and eat poisonous snakes - look a lot like coral snakes.

Green garter snakes are quite pretty, IMO, and docile enough that they can be interesting to pick up and examine before letting them go.

All that said, if I have what I judge to be a reasonable fear that the presence of a particular snake poses a threat of death or serious bodily injury to me or a third party then I'm acting in self defense - and my threshold for doing so would be a lot lower with a snake than with a human.

Edited May 13, 2010 by JAB

[Guest Jamie]

Well, obviously if I have the choice I will step back out of the way - then draw, aim and fire (sorry, I'm not taking the chance on stepping on the stupid thing the next time.) I'm not going 'hunting' snakes and obviously it would be different if I were on public land but I'm also not taking chances on getting bitten in my garden, etc.

Eh, I won't kill 'em unless I'm positive it's a toxic variety.

We have quite a few blacksnakes around here, and I make sure that anybody who's here to work or whatever leaves 'em alone... mostly because the one year we saw none was the year 3 of our dogs got bit by a young copperhead.

So I'm left to conclude that the black ones and the rat snakes keep the copperheads away. How or why, I don't know, but that seems to be what the evidence at hand says.

A couple of years ago, before I started carrying a firearm around the yard, I was walking up our concrete driveway, minding my own business. There was a (fairly small, black) snake that had apparently been hiding in the grass near the end of the concrete and it struck at me as I walked by. I hadn't poked at it, aggravated it, stepped on it or even seen it before it struck. I just happened to be carrying/walking with a walking stick that I was working on (was actually walking up the driveway because I was headed toward the workshop) and managed to move it between me and the snake so it struck the stick, instead - and hard - before crawling away. Since I didn't see it until it was in the process of striking, I doubt I would have been able to step out of the way quickly enough and getting the walking stick in just the right spot was more luck than anything. IMO, the idea that 'if you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone' is a bunch of hooey. Maybe it was getting ready to shed its skin or something (their eyesight is clouded by the molting skin over them.) Honestly, I don't really care 'why' - my concern is the possible outcome of being bitten. That one probably wasn't poisonous but I still don't want bit, regardless. The fact that it struck unexpectedly, from cover, when I wasn't all that close to it (not to mention that I wouldn't have had time to draw much less shoot before it bit me) doesn't exactly give me a warm, fuzzy feeling about letting a poisonous snake hang around where I live.

1) I'll bet it wasn't hiding so much as you probably weren't paying attention and was just plodding along not expecting - or looking for - a "sneak attack" from the ground.

2) If it was small... 3 ft. or less?... you had to be pretty damn close for it to strike you. A foot and half or less?

3) It was probably young... and you know how youngsters of any species are; not given to making the wisest of choices.

An adult would have either headed for someplace else, or just stayed real still until you'd passed.

Yeah, I know - corn snakes look a lot like copperheads except corn snakes lack, well, the copper head.

Copperheads are usually a lot fatter and less streamlined too.

Cottonmouth snakes can supposedly be identified by the fact that the inside of their mouth is white (hence the name.) However, many (most?) snakes supposedly have a white or whitish color to the inside of their mouth.

They also can have the same pattern as a copperhead showing slightly through their black/gray coloring.

When they're young, both look identical, with the Cottonmouth turning blacker as they get older, like someone spray painted over their pattern.

The cottonmouth is supposedly the more toxic/harmful of the two though.

Water moccasins supposedly don't live in East Tennessee. That said, mountain lions have been spotted and photographed for years in states where they supposedly 'didn't live' (not talking about Tennessee.)

If you have water and warm weather, then you've probably got cottonmouths. You'll find them just about any place you find copperheads.

King snakes - which are actually said to kill and eat poisonous snakes - look a lot like coral snakes.

Most non-poisonous snakes will eat other snakes. See my earlier comments concerning black racers and rat snakes.

( Rat snakes are contrary as hell, btw. They'd much rather fight than move, most days. )

Green garter snakes are quite pretty, IMO, and docile enough that they can be interesting to pick up and examine before letting them go.

Green snakes and garter snakes are two different critters. Garter snakes have several colored lines running their length and are indeed fairly docile. And also quit harmless.

Green snakes, on the other hand, can also be ill-tempered, and although not venomous, apparently share something in common with Komodo Dragons; they carry a ton of bacteria in their mouths and a bite from one can set up a staph infection very quickly.

So you're better off to not get too cozy with them either... not that I get the impression that you would.

All that said, if I have what I judge to be a reasonable fear that the presence of a particular snake poses a threat of death or serious bodily injury to me or a third party then I'm acting in self defense - and my threshold for doing so would be a lot lower with a snake than with a human.

Which is exactly what the law allows.

Anyway... so ends the "Snake Lesson".

J.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest jackdm3]

King snakes: Red touch black, put it back.

Corals: Red touch yellow, kill a fellow.

[Oh Shoot]

If you have water and warm weather, then you've probably got cottonmouths. You'll find them just about any place you find copperheads..

No way, Jamie.

Very limited range in TN, and small density even where they can be found.

Certainly about zero from midstate and eastward.

Copperheads can be at just about any altitude in the state, and don't care about being anywhere near water, either. Cottonmouths depend on wetland habitat. Warm wetland habitat, not mountain streams.

Copperhead range in whole US is much larger than cottonmouth, also.

- OS

[-boatman-]

Eh, I won't kill 'em unless I'm positive it's a toxic variety.

J.

Same here. About as far as I go is to throw it out of the yard. My wife is very afraid of any of them so I just get them away from the house.

[kb4ns]

Is there a difference between cottonmouths and water moccasins? I thought they were two names for the same snake?

[Oh Shoot]

Is there a difference between cottonmouths and water moccasins? I thought they were two names for the same snake?

Yes, same snake.

Agkistrodon piscivorus

3 sub species known in US.

There are any number of watersnakes in TN, indeed any snake can swim if it needs to, cottonmouth very rare.

- OS

Edited May 14, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

No way, Jamie.

Very limited range in TN, and small density even where they can be found.

Certainly about zero from midstate and eastward.

Copperheads can be at just about any altitude in the state, and don't care about being anywhere near water, either. Cottonmouths depend on wetland habitat. Warm wetland habitat, not mountain streams.

Copperhead range in whole US is much larger than cottonmouth, also.

- OS

According to some folks I know that grew up in East Tn... one of which who's a veterinarian...yes, way.

Not as prevalent as in the rest of the state, but there just the same.

Oh, and though cottonmouths do like water and are generally found nearby, they've also been found a good way away from it too.

Doesn't matter too much though, since if you find yourself in the mountains, or near them, you'd better be more worried about rattlers any way.

J.

[Guest Jamie]

... cottonmouth very rare.

- OS

In some places, not near rare enough.

J.

[Oh Shoot]

In some places, not near rare enough.

J.

So you live up maybe near Clarksville?

Kill a few of the prolific cottonmouth population up there and FedEx 'em to me on dry ice. I'll give you $50 apiece for them.

- OS

[JAB]

Decided to move this post to a new thread to avoid further hijacking this one. Apologies to the OP.

[Guest Jamie]

So you live up maybe near Clarksville?

Kill a few of the prolific cottonmouth population up there and FedEx 'em to me on dry ice. I'll give you $50 apiece for them.

- OS

I think we both know that would be illegal.

BTW, Shelbyville has it's fair share of 'em too... One of my relatives was bitten several times while wading out into one of his ponds to retrieve a calf that got stuck in the mud. The locals claim he walked into a "nest" of 'em. He survived, but only barely, and after a long stay in the hospital.

J.