Say Hello to the NY Car Bomber

[Guest SUNTZU]

The last two were duds. Looks like their talent pool is getting thin.

I think the last two were attempts to find out response times and actions. The men attempting to set off the devices might have thought they were going to do their jobs, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that an m-80 and a propane tank isn't going to work. These guys have been doing this kind of stuff for a minute or two, I don't think they are that dumb.

SunTzu - Read the book. Its available for free on the internet...to everyone.

[mikegideon]

I think the last two were attempts to find out response times and actions. The men attempting to set off the devices might have thought they were going to do their jobs, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that an m-80 and a propane tank isn't going to work. These guys have been doing this kind of stuff for a minute or two, I don't think they are that dumb.

SunTzu - Read the book. Its available for free on the internet...to everyone.

Good points. you could be right

[Guest SUNTZU]

God I hope not.

[Guest SUNTZU]

.

[mikegideon]

I was thinking about all that yesterday, and it's the kind of thing that really bothers me with something like this going to trial. For starters he didn't kill anyone. Also, there's not anything wrong with having propane tanks, I have some that are bigger than the ones he had. I also get those tanks filled at the farm supply place here, where I could also legally buy fertilizer. On top of that, I have some wires running to stereo equipment in my truck that could short out at some point, and as far as I know having things like that isn't against any laws either, nor is owning a clock and having it in the truck because most vehicles have a clock of some sort from the factory. If he hadn't confessed to what his intentions were, a decent lawyer would try to argue all of that in order to get him out. Even though I'm sure our justice system works better than that, but there would be a slight possibility for someone like this to simply have to pay a parking ticket for leaving the vehicle where he did. Like I say though, we all know that wont happen in this case, I just hate the fact that our tax dollars could possibly go toward a trial where these facts could be argued.

Mike, I agree with your argument that as long as he is a citizen he has the right to fair trial, and like I said this is why we should start out by stripping him of his citizenship. What I can't understand is how you and some of the others that posted think that by executing a terrorist, we are no better than they are. How exactly would executing someone who attempted to kill multiple amounts of innocent people make us anything like they are?

You missed my point. They need to execute him through due process.

[strickj]

How exactly would executing someone who attempted to kill multiple amounts of innocent people make us anything like they are?

That was me that said that and I said nothing of the such

Someone said they [add terrorist torture on camera stuff here] and we should do the same.

I said, by doing what they do, makes us no different then those we are trying protect ourselves from.

I never said executing someone makes us them.

[MCSCOTT]

That was me that said that and I said nothing of the such

Someone said they [add terrorist torture on camera stuff here] and we should do the same.

I said, by doing what they do, makes us no different then those we are trying protect ourselves from.

I never said executing someone makes us them.

No, what you said I can agree with, I wasn't referring to your comment. The others that I mention were making that kind of comment based on those that mention giving the guy a swift execution.

[mikegideon]

God I hope not.

Another angle... every time they elevate the terror threat, they win. It ain't really about body count.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Another angle... every time they elevate the terror threat, they win. It ain't really about body count.

Yes. That's why I think its a smart move on their part to do runs like this. They get to test AND still scare people.

[Mike.357]

I am not sure Daniel, what is there to test? Had the bomb gone off a bunch of people would have died. You have confused me. Of course that is not hard to do.

[MCSCOTT]

You missed my point. They need to execute him through due process.

I didn't miss your point, but maybe you're missing mine.

My point is that you shouldn't consider those that think this guy should be put to death as being in the same category as he is. If that's the case, then why do any of us carry firearms? If someone shoots at you and you shoot back, doesn't that make you no different than they are? If in doing so you hit them and kill them, aren't you wrong because they didn't get their fair trial?

I know your point is that he has been caught, and since he is a US citizen he is entitled to due process. You also made me realize that by not giving him this it our Constitution loses part of it's value, so people should first be stripped of citizenship in this kind of situation.

Either way, don't put me in the same category as a terrorist because of my opinion that they should be swiftly executed.

Edited May 6, 2010 by MCSCOTT

[mikegideon]

I didn't miss your point, but maybe you're missing mine.

My point is that you shouldn't consider those that think this guy should be put to death as being in the same category as he is. If that's the case, then why do any of us carry firearms? If someone shoots at you and you shoot back, doesn't that make you no different than they are? If in doing so you hit them and kill them, aren't you wrong because they didn't get their fair trial?

I know your point is that he has been caught, and since he is a US citizen he is entitled to due process. You also made me realize that by not giving him this it our Constitution loses part of it's value, so people should first be stripped of citizenship in this kind of situation.

Either way, don't put me in the same category as a terrorist because of my opinion that they should be swiftly executed.

I'm not putting you in the same category. I have already said that I would like to shoot the guy myself.

We have LAWS. Those laws need to be abided by. Those LAWS make us different than them. This guys didn't even hurt anybody, but he'll get the same penalties as first degree murder.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I am not sure Daniel, what is there to test? Had the bomb gone off a bunch of people would have died. You have confused me. Of course that is not hard to do.

Response times of new branch heads and offices that are following the new administration's different policies for one. Anytime there is an administration change there will be lag times and snafus that crop up. Also, there have been shake ups on the terrorists end as well. Its not testing of materials, if that is what you mean, but testing organizations here in the U.S. Apply if you need to, but I think as porous as the U.S.A.'s borders are we will have another big terrorist incident soon.

[Mike.357]

why not test it by actually committing a terrorist act then? Would they not still gain the same info by actually blowing something up?

[Guest SUNTZU]

See how many people think that terrorists are stupid? Don't have to keep that guard up as much because terrorists are stupid.

The DOW fell almost 1000 points today but has rebounded about half of that. What a freefall that would be for the DOW with a successful terrorist attack. Just possibilities, Mike, that's all I'm saying.

[MCSCOTT]

I'm not putting you in the same category. I have already said that I would like to shoot the guy myself.

We have LAWS. Those laws need to be abided by. Those LAWS make us different than them. This guys didn't even hurt anybody, but he'll get the same penalties as first degree murder.

Going back over the thread again I now realize that you were responding to the same post as strick was. The comment was the main thing I caught which put me back to 6.8 giving a similar response to my calling for him to be executed, so my aim on the comment was a little off and you got hit by the stray rant.

In the end I partially agree with you though, and my opinion on the matter has changed from the beginning of this thread to read "he should be stripped of citizenship and then swiftly executed without further trial", instead of "he should be executed without wasting time and money on a trial".

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I see your point, MCSCOTT, but can you grant citizenship and then take it away without due process? I don't know, but I would like to see justice carried out and a lynch mob mentality isn't justice, yet.

[MCSCOTT]

I see your point, MCSCOTT, but can you grant citizenship and then take it away without due process? I don't know, but I would like to see justice carried out and a lynch mob mentality isn't justice, yet.

Of course you can't without due process. I'd like to hear more on it though because I would have to think that the process of stripping someone of their citizenship in such an event would move along much quicker than the process of seeking the death penalty for a citizen. Stripping him of it, in theory, should mean that he could then be executed without further trial or chance for appeal.

I dunno though, I just think this country really needs to refurbish it's legal system.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's got it's problems, but it's all we got:D

[strickj]

My point is that you shouldn't consider those that think this guy should be put to death as being in the same category as he is. If that's the case, then why do any of us carry firearms? If someone shoots at you and you shoot back, doesn't that make you no different than they are?

Not the same.

If you shoot them and then rob\rape\whatever them, then you are no better then the scumbag.

If we just start killing people in retaliation without trial, make videos of their torture, kill innocent civilians on their home land, then we would be no better then them.

"an eye for an eye makes the world go blind"

[mcurrier]

My point is that you shouldn't consider those that think this guy should be put to death as being in the same category as he is. If that's the case, then why do any of us carry firearms? If someone shoots at you and you shoot back, doesn't that make you no different than they are? If in doing so you hit them and kill them, aren't you wrong because they didn't get their fair trial?

He should in fact be somewhere being tortured to extract every last drop of information that he has on contacts, training camps, other fellow terrorists (here and abroad) and future planned operations. Death can come later.

I know your point is that he has been caught, and since he is a US citizen he is entitled to due process. You also made me realize that by not giving him this it our Constitution loses part of it's value, so people should first be stripped of citizenship in this kind of situation.

Citizen my eye. He only became a "citizen" as part of his plan, by deceit and fraud, thus it's null and void as far as I'm concerned. I doubt that he loved America all the while supposedly becoming a citizen of it, but then 6 months into his loving citizenship decided that he now hated America and wanted to do what he did, his newly begotten citizenship be damned. He was caught fleeing the country. This guy had no intention of being a long-term American citizen. It's the same as being caught out of uniform and in civilian clothes, he was a spy, a saboteur caught performing espionage and should be treated as such. His so-called citizenship was faux.

[Mike.357]

See how many people think that terrorists are stupid? Don't have to keep that guard up as much because terrorists are stupid.

The DOW fell almost 1000 points today but has rebounded about half of that. What a freefall that would be for the DOW with a successful terrorist attack. Just possibilities, Mike, that's all I'm saying.

You are deep and very complex SUNTZU, I bow to you

[Guest SUNTZU]

You are deep and very complex SUNTZU, I bow to you

Never bow to anyone, Mike, you're an American.

[Mike.357]

alright then, I high five you instead.

[MCSCOTT]

Not the same.

If you shoot them and then rob\rape\whatever them, then you are no better then the scumbag.

If we just start killing people in retaliation without trial, make videos of their torture, kill innocent civilians on their home land, then we would be no better then them.

"an eye for an eye makes the world go blind"

But the issues of rob/rape/whatever was not what I mentioned, I simply mentioned you being shot at and whether you would shoot back. How can you determine if the one shooting at you is going to rob/rape/whatever, without them having a fair trial? If you hit and kill them, then you've carried out their execution without knowing because there was no trial.

None of what I said involves killing innocent civilians on their home land, and like I said I don't 100% agree with their torture either, I simply don't think we should have to waste time and tax dollars to have to try to prove that they did something that is this obvious. Should also be noted that WE will also have to waste even more time and tax dollars because we will have to pay for someone to try to prove he is innocent.