Mythbusters 9mm vs 45

[wjh2657]

Having perused all of the available data from all of the gun experts on the web, I have come the conclusion that the only round available that will guarantee a one shot stop is the Caliber .50, ball, M2 (BMG). Therefore drawing on my vast experience at reading gun forums, surely making my reasoning beyond question, I have come to the conclusion that my .45 brethren are totally out of line. To use their own phrasing, if you are not carrying a .50BMG, you are not sufficiently armed.

I have found some difficulty in pocket carrying a Barrett however and actually I carry a S&W 642 in .38 spcl. I quake in fear every time I realize that I am not effectively armed for self defense.

[Guest redbarron06]

I might steal that one

Go ahead I did.

As far a penitration. How far through a target do you want to go? Any energy used to push the bullet past the target is wasted energy. I want all of my energy dumped in the first 8 inches.

[JAB]

Here is the way I visualize the .45 vs 9mm debate - hope this makes sense:

My pickup (9mm) is not as large nor as powerful as an 18 wheeler (.45acp). If the pickup hits you at 90 mph or the semi hits you at 75 mph, however, the difference will mostly be academic. Heck, a Honda Civic (.380acp) hitting you at 65 mph isn't going to do you any good. Again, the difference isn't going to make much, well, difference.

Oh, and I guess a 12 gauge would be a freight train in that continuum.

[TN-popo]

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/critical-incident-strategies/37910-ammunition.html

[Guest 1817ak47]

now this was a test using both hp and fmj, but out ofa xd9 4", some of the brands would go thru a fresh 6"x6" piece of treated lumber at point blank range. I will try to bring it to a range meet next time

[Guest redbarron06]

Here is the way I visualize the .45 vs 9mm debate - hope this makes sense:

My pickup (9mm) is not as large nor as powerful as an 18 wheeler (.45acp). If the pickup hits you at 90 mph or the semi hits you at 75 mph, however, the difference will mostly be academic. Heck, a Honda Civic (.380acp) hitting you at 65 mph isn't going to do you any good. Again, the difference isn't going to make much, well, difference.

Oh, and I guess a 12 gauge would be a freight train in that continuum.

Well of the bullet was large enough to hit the entire body I would agree, but you are only hitting part of the body. Do you want to hit sombody with a pool cue (can e very effective) or a base ball bat (may not be going as fast but has much more mass behind it)? I can break an arm with either one but one has a better chance of driving your arm back into your body where I can then make contact with the head using the mometum in the same swing.

[Guest KarlS]

Oh boy. Another 9 vs 45 thread.

[JReedEsq]

These threads are silly. It all comes down to what you can it with. I have 9s because I can shoot them better and faster. If you can shoot your .40/.45/.357 well then that's what you should carry. Caliber is such a small part of the self-defense equation. If you fail in a self-defense situation, it will probably be because you didn't hit your intended target. The only exception I see to this would be in a large animal situation. If I wanted a bigger caliber for that scenario, I probably would skip right on up to a 10mm.

Edited May 4, 2010 by JReedEsq

[roverboy]

I personally have a .357 and have confidence in it. Yeah I know its a revolver and that a lot of people think something won't work unless its got at least 10 rds. But its a good caliber. If I was gonna use the .45 or 9mm I would use the .45. Thats just me. I'm still a little pissed about the Gov. forcing it on the Military. And yes I know why. Because of standardization in NATO. But it sucks as a military round in the ball ammo.

[Garufa]

Having perused all of the available data from all of the gun experts on the web, I have come the conclusion that the only round available that will guarantee a one shot stop is the Caliber .50, ball, M2 (BMG). Therefore drawing on my vast experience at reading gun forums, surely making my reasoning beyond question, I have come to the conclusion that my .45 brethren are totally out of line. To use their own phrasing, if you are not carrying a .50BMG, you are not sufficiently armed.

I have found some difficulty in pocket carrying a Barrett however and actually I carry a S&W 642 in .38 spcl. I quake in fear every time I realize that I am not effectively armed for self defense.

[gunsablazin]

These threads are silly. It all comes down to what you can it with. I have 9s because I can shoot them better and faster. If you can shoot your .40/.45/.357 well then that's what you should carry. Caliber is such a small part of the self-defense equation. If you fail in a self-defense situation, it will probably be because you didn't hit your intended target. The only exception I see to this would be in a large animal situation. If I wanted a bigger caliber for that scenario, I probably would skip right on up to a 10mm.

Exactly! It is the archer, not the arrow. I carry a 1911, in .45ACP, because I can use it. I would not feel under gunned with a 9mm though. Carry what you shoot well and pray you never need it.

[molonlabetn]

Here is the way I visualize the .45 vs 9mm debate - hope this makes sense:

My pickup (9mm) is not as large nor as powerful as an 18 wheeler (.45acp). If the pickup hits you at 90 mph or the semi hits you at 75 mph, however, the difference will mostly be academic. Heck, a Honda Civic (.380acp) hitting you at 65 mph isn't going to do you any good. Again, the difference isn't going to make much, well, difference.

Oh, and I guess a 12 gauge would be a freight train in that continuum.

To have the same energy as a 9mm, your pickup would be going about 2 mph. To be equal to a .45, the semi would be going 1/2 mph, the civic would be going 2 1/2 mph to be equal to a .380acp...

If you welded a .355" or .45" rod on the front of the vehicles and ran them into somebody, which would be most likely to harm them? Even at those speeds I doubt it would matter much, but my money would be on the lighter vehicle going faster, to be honest, to ensure penetration vs. just moving the whole person. Velocity is important in overcoming the elasticity of flesh.

[Guest Chandler]

Go ahead I did.

As far a penitration. How far through a target do you want to go? Any energy used to push the bullet past the target is wasted energy. I want all of my energy dumped in the first 8 inches.

THIS x2

[mikegideon]

Here is the way I visualize the .45 vs 9mm debate - hope this makes sense:

My pickup (9mm) is not as large nor as powerful as an 18 wheeler (.45acp). If the pickup hits you at 90 mph or the semi hits you at 75 mph, however, the difference will mostly be academic. Heck, a Honda Civic (.380acp) hitting you at 65 mph isn't going to do you any good. Again, the difference isn't going to make much, well, difference.

Oh, and I guess a 12 gauge would be a freight train in that continuum.

The best way to visualize the debate is garufa's post #21. No hangun caliber is an instant death ray. Some are a little more effective than others, and how much that matters is going to vary with each shot.

Some pretty wild stuff gets thrown into these caliber debates

[Guest The Cat]

THIS x2

X3 even

As my wizened mentor is fond of saying: "For every advantage, there is a disadvantage."

I'll stick with the .45. I have nine rounds. If I hit 'em, they'll likely change their mind about whatever they're trying to do to me. If they give me enough time, I'll reload. If not, my muzzle's going thru their eye socket.

I have zero problem with Mythbusters' penetration tests. Who needs scientific accuracy when you have a major coolness factor?

[JAB]

Well of the bullet was large enough to hit the entire body I would agree, but you are only hitting part of the body. Do you want to hit sombody with a pool cue (can e very effective) or a base ball bat (may not be going as fast but has much more mass behind it)? I can break an arm with either one but one has a better chance of driving your arm back into your body where I can then make contact with the head using the mometum in the same swing.

So why do folks who are much more likely than I am to end up facing really bad people carry tactical batons that are more comparable to a pool cue than a baseball bat?

[JAB]

To have the same energy as a 9mm, your pickup would be going about 2 mph. To be equal to a .45, the semi would be going 1/2 mph, the civic would be going 2 1/2 mph to be equal to a .380acp...

If you welded a .355" or .45" rod on the front of the vehicles and ran them into somebody, which would be most likely to harm them? Even at those speeds I doubt it would matter much, but my money would be on the lighter vehicle going faster, to be honest, to ensure penetration vs. just moving the whole person. Velocity is important in overcoming the elasticity of flesh.

My point was more along the lines that, IMO, once you get to the level of at least a 9mm - but probably even a .380 or the 'lowly' .32acp in most cases - perforated is perforated. The way I see it, if someone is going to be physically stopped by a .45 then they are going to be physically stopped if shot in the same spot with a 9mm. .38 Special, .357, etc. if good ammo selection is practiced. If someone is going to be mentally convinced to stop (i.e. not physically incapacitated but choose to break off the attack) by a .45 then they are going to be mentally stopped by a 9mm or even a .380. If someone is going to keep coming and trying to kill me after they have been shot with a 9mm - or even a .380 - then they are most likely going to keep coming and trying to kill me after being shot with a .45. I mean, we are talking differences in standard handgun energy levels here and a difference in bullet size of, what, less than two millimeters - maybe even less depending upon the expansion of each, individual round?

To my mind, once you get to the level of 9mm vs. .45, assuming the same shot placement, ammo selection is more important than caliber selection. I further believe that when you go further down the chain to something like a .380 then ammo selection becomes even more important - but with the right ammo the person who can shoot their .380 well is still not unarmed or, necessarily, even undergunned.

I carry a 9mm as primary, sometimes. At other times, my primary might be a .357, maybe loaded with magnum rounds or maybe loaded with .38 Specials or .38 +P. I have carried a five-shot .38 revolver and felt plenty armed just as I do not feel 'unarmed' on those occasions when I carry my P3AT as primary. I practice with all of them and the lower down the power chain I go the more importance I place on ammo selection.

[strickj]

To have the same energy as a 9mm, your pickup would be going about 2 mph. To be equal to a .45, the semi would be going 1/2 mph, the civic would be going 2 1/2 mph to be equal to a .380acp...

If you welded a .355" or .45" rod on the front of the vehicles and ran them into somebody, which would be most likely to harm them? Even at those speeds I doubt it would matter much, but my money would be on the lighter vehicle going faster, to be honest, to ensure penetration vs. just moving the whole person. Velocity is important in overcoming the elasticity of flesh.

[bubbiesdad]

[Guest 270win]

Handguns are not great 'stoppers'. They are backup weapons to long guns. Look at what puts deer down with center shots. If we were going after/expect immediate trouble, we'd carry a rifle or shotgun. We are defending ourself from attack in public, so we have something convenient with us.

Whatever you can hide on you in public is good and shoot comfortably is the key. A 32 hidden on you all the time is better than a 357 mag left in your car when some thug tries to rob you in a parking lot.

[Guest 1817ak47]

people have unrealistic expectations that one shot will stop something. I have shot possums, catsand racoons with a 22 lr, and they rarely die instantly. I also have shot several red squirrls with a 20 ga, and they often fall from the tree but don't die right away. now of course I didn't get the best placement in the above cause of either moving targets or scattered shot was used. sometimes I have shot those moving target 2 or 3 times and the still barely were able to run with a 22 LR.

now what do people expect will happen to a 150 lb person when a animal weighing at most 10 lbs doesn't get instantly "stopped and killed" even with the newer 50 cal revolver round(don't know the name) if not in a perfect placement won't immediately stop them.

another story from greg newstrom from cca HCP course. he knew someone in afganistan that got shot with a dragunov(7.62x54r caliber) and didn't feel it and it took a fist sized chunk out of him, and the guy is still alive today

just a few good stories and points for people to consider:2cents:

[Proscene]

Gee,

According to this graph I am sufficiently armed with my Glock 357 sig:D

[mikegideon]

Gee,

According to this graph I am sufficiently armed with my Glock 357 sig:D

I'm kinda fond of that one myself

[Sandman]

Ha ha ha ha ha.

[Guest Risky Ruger]

If the bad guy gives me an option and time to choose, i think the .45 would be my choice. But it comes down to self defense and carry. If you like packing a large .45 cal then that's your choice. I choose my 9mm because its lighter. So in my case, I choose the 9mm because that's what i usually carry.