High-end double-action revolvers

[Guest oldsmobile98]

So, I've been reading up a little on revolvers. Specifically, this blog:

GrantCunningham.com - Revolver Liberation Alliance blog

He is a revolversmith. Doesn't do any work on bottom-feeders (), just Colt, Ruger, and S&W wheelguns. Anyhow, he's written a couple of times about a niche that's not really filled today.

If you want a really nice brand new autopistol, you have a lot of choices. But if you want a really nice new double-action revolver, you don't have so many choices. S&W and Ruger come to mind. Colt and Dan Wesson are out of the DA revolver business. There are a few other companies that make revolvers of decent quality, and I'm not knocking them.

Anyhow, do you think there is still a market for high-end DA revolvers? Like something equal to the quality of a Colt Python. They'd have a high cost, to be sure, though...

A quote from his blog (he's talking about just DA revolvers here):

The reality is that a high-quality gun - a gun that could compete with, say, something from the 1930's - is going to cost north of the thousand-dollar mark, and there is just no way around that fact. Even the best of the S&W Performance Center guns don't approach the kind of fit and finish that were commonly available in, say, 1935, but are still pushing a grand. If they were capable of finishing those guns to the degree of the famed Registered Magnums (and I don't think they are,) you'd see a minimum 50% increase in the cost - if not more.

What say you? Are there folks out there who would spring for this, or is the era of new snob-quality double-action wheelguns gone for good?

[Garufa]

Anyhow, do you think there is still a market for high-end DA revolvers?

Yes, and S&W still makes quality revolvers.

If you don't like new ones, there is an endless supply of older, even higher quality ones on the market.

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Yes, and S&W still makes quality revolvers.

If you don't like new ones, there is an endless supply of older, even higher quality ones on the market.

I know, I like my S&W 620 a lot. Bought it new in 2008. I'm not complaining.

But if somebody were to make new DA revolvers that were equal in quality to the old hand-fitted ones...would folks buy 'em? Like I wrote, they would require mucho dinero.

[I_Like_Pie]

I think one of the reasons...unlike cars they don't go bad. There are probably 50 million of them in the hands of gunowners. This is a testament to their reliability and popularity. Market is saturated is all and nobody is willing to pay $1000 at todays price for a new revolver when a 25 year old one at $600 will outperform it.

There are some VERY fine wheelguns being made, but right now it is in the single action world. Freedom Arms and the re-tooled Bowen guns come to mind.

[Garufa]

But if somebody were to make new DA revolvers that were equal in quality to the old hand-fitted ones...would folks buy 'em? Like I wrote, they would require mucho dinero.

I personally do not think a "custom" gun today could be made to match the quality of craftsmanship produced by 100% American made, mass-produced revolers of the past. Even S&W, the last true manufacturer, has realized that and introduced the "Classic" series of revolvers (which they never should have stopped making to begin with), but with those darn locks.

The cost would be prohibitive and ridiculous. There would be no collector's value and there are zillions of the real thing out there.

I'm old school and want high-quality, reasonably priced guns.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Garufa

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Market is saturated is all and nobody is willing to pay $1000 at todays price for a new revolver when a 25 year old one at $600 will outperform it.

There are some VERY fine wheelguns being made, but right now it is in the single action world. Freedom Arms and the re-tooled Bowen guns come to mind.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Is the market really saturated, or is this a business opportunity just waiting to be seized? I dunno. I aren't an entrepreneur (yet, at least), but I've taken a few business-oriented classes... just thought it was an interesting idea.

Mr. Cunningham wrote a post encouraging Freedom Arms to branch out into double-actions, but so far they've stuck to what they're good at, and I don't blame them. But I can't help wondering if the high-end DA revolver market isn't an overlooked opportunity...

[eapking]

S&W still makes the best DA Revolvers. Yes, you will pay more. Here's a good forum that might help you on your revolver research.

Handguns: The Revolver Forum - TheFiringLine Forums

[gregintenn]

New Smith and Wessons ain't much. Here's a high end revolver if you're in the market for one.

Korth-Waffen (Revolver)#

It's this or spring for a vintage Smith and Wesson.

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Hmm... the Korth revolvers look nice. Thanks for the link.

To clarify, I'm not really in the market for one of these. Just kinda thinking about it from a business perspective and wondering if anybody is gonna step up to give S&W some competition in this segment...

[gregintenn]

Sadly, I don't see demand for what your asking about. Smith and Wesson pretty much perfected the revolver before going on to screw it up. I'm sure rising production costs and fading demand figured into their desicion to cheap out on the newer models.

[leroy]

Dear fellow gun aficionados:____________

I believe that the overwhelming reason that revolvers have been pushed to the background in the "main stream" of new gun sales is as follows:

1. Revolvers have been cast on the scrap heap of the police and military sector. For the military; since about 1911 and for the police since the 9 mm revolution of the early eighties.
   
2. The gun press has spilled tank cars of ink telling folks that they need a pistol that shoots a gigillion times at all times. A revolver shoots 5 or 6 times.
   
3. The big hitter: CNC machining technology has improved the manufacturing processes for all small parts to the extent that semi auto pistols that used to cost several thousands of dollars from custom gunsmiths who were relatively few in number, can be bought in today’s market at about $800 to whatever you are willing to pay, and are off the shelf items.
   
4. Makers like Glock did something that no one had thought of before. They made a pistol with a frame made out of used plastic coke bottles that was ultra reliable and cheap. This is a great technological break thru and a revolutionary concept.
   
5. For the most part, the big names in revolver making were traditionally headquartered in the North East. That means the union has had them organized for years. Union labor contributes to the cost of production. If it weren't for government contracts (...which give incentives for union labor, and punishments for foreign production, by the way...). Colt and S & W would already be dead. Nobody wants to give $1000 for a revolver that ought to cost $500.
   

Now, having said all these heinous things about the poor revolver, i want to say some good things:

I_Like_Pie hit the nail square on the head here; and summarized the whole issue as well as it could be said:

• I think one of the reasons...unlike cars

  they don't go bad. There are probably 50 million of them in the hands of gunowners. This is a testament to their reliability and popularity. Market is saturated is all and nobody is willing to pay $1000 at today’s price for a new revolver when a 25 year old one at $600 will outperform it. ...There are some VERY fine wheelguns being made, but right now it is in the single action world. Freedom Arms and the re-tooled Bowen guns come to mind.

• Revolvers are dead reliable for several lifetimes if taken care of.
  
• Revolvers are as quick as anything out there if they are shot double action. A revolver will be in a dead heat for shooting with any semi auto IF the revolver man knows how to shoot double action.
  
• Every real student of handguns should own a revolver or two so he can really appreciate how well they work.
  
• Every student of history should own a revolver because they are a genuine part of American history. I say: "Collect 'em all"!
  

Thus endeth the dissertation.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[graycrait]

I do a reasonable amount of work on revolvers for friends. I get to see the innards of both new and old ones. I can't imagine quality revolvers made for a reasonable cost like back when S&W were making pinned and recessed .357's. I may be wrong here but it is my opinion that even with Ruger revolvers the older Speed or Service Six series (pre-GP or SP) may have had a bit more handfinishing than the new ones. Ruger does a good job in casting but I think I tend to find more bits of "slag" and some "burrs" in newer Rugers than older ones. This tends to tell me that Ruger's casting is better than ever, but it is so good now that they eliminate nearly any hand finishing, just cast and assemble. I suspect S&W is about the same way for many steps of the production. These days I just stay away from Charter and Taurus revolvers. I have had several Taurus and even have a Charter now that is in pieces waiting for me to order a part and to be put back together, which I am in no hurry to do. Charter and Taurus are a lot less costly than Ruger and S&W for a reason and it just isn't brand. My favorites: K-frame .357s or .38s and Ruger SP101 or older Ruger Speed Six. However, I do have beautiful nickel S&W J frame Bodyguard that belongs to a friend who wants me to tune it up that I have been admiring.... Nickel with mother of pearl handles? I never would have thought I would like a gun with that set up but it seems a handy go-to-church style gun, a bit pimpish, but a nice running little piece. Look around there are still a few bargains in the used revolver market. Never ignore the chance to look at police turn-ins or security company turn-ins. I've seen some neat Brinks turn-ins lately that are pretty nice and at 250.00 for a much carried little shot S&W K-frame, how can you go wrong?

[willis68]

I do a reasonable amount of work on revolvers for friends. I get to see the innards of both new and old ones. I can't imagine quality revolvers made for a reasonable cost like back when S&W were making pinned and recessed .357's. I may be wrong here but it is my opinion that even with Ruger revolvers the older Speed or Service Six series (pre-GP or SP) may have had a bit more handfinishing than the new ones. Ruger does a good job in casting but I think I tend to find more bits of "slag" and some "burrs" in newer Rugers than older ones. This tends to tell me that Ruger's casting is better than ever, but it is so good now that they eliminate nearly any hand finishing, just cast and assemble. I suspect S&W is about the same way for many steps of the production. These days I just stay away from Charter and Taurus revolvers. I have had several Taurus and even have a Charter now that is in pieces waiting for me to order a part and to be put back together, which I am in no hurry to do. Charter and Taurus are a lot less costly than Ruger and S&W for a reason and it just isn't brand. My favorites: K-frame .357s or .38s and Ruger SP101 or older Ruger Speed Six. However, I do have beautiful nickel S&W J frame Bodyguard that belongs to a friend who wants me to tune it up that I have been admiring.... Nickel with mother of pearl handles? I never would have thought I would like a gun with that set up but it seems a handy go-to-church style gun, a bit pimpish, but a nice running little piece. Look around there are still a few bargains in the used revolver market. Never ignore the chance to look at police turn-ins or security company turn-ins. I've seen some neat Brinks turn-ins lately that are pretty nice and at 250.00 for a much carried little shot S&W K-frame, how can you go wrong?

I have been wanting a 2 inch Barrel 686 Smith and Wesson in stainless steel, I will eventually get one and have some custom work done to it In your opinion, what year pre Clinton lock 686 would you say is the best made?

[LngRngShtr]

Willis,..

You want to think "pin-barreled" some of the earlier non pinned were over torqued and a barrel/cylinder alignment tool also called a range rod will show you the tight spot where the barrel meets the frame, we had some in a shop I worked at that wouldn't pass this test and even occasionally wouldn't pass the cylinder alignment part of the test if it got that far,.. and accuracy from a rest was horrible, fire 6 shots get 2 groups (load same ammo into a pin barrel 586 and get 1 group same test)

Accuracy will never match an older pinned barrel as this tight spot "squashes" the bullet undersized , though a 2" barrel will be harder to shoot due to sight radius they are plenty accurate once you get used to them.

I have a 4" 10-6 in .38 , and a 586 pinned barrel that both range perfect I am confident the old K-38 will also.. I have no desire to own a Squeeze barrel or Clintonlock edition

Smith may have fixed this problem in later models but I would still test them with a range rod,.. match grade to verify the cylinder timing and if this tight spot is or is not there.. if you are looking for the best in accuracy potential

John

[willis68]

Thanks john

[DMark]

.... I can't imagine quality revolvers made for a reasonable cost like back when S&W were making pinned and recessed .357's..... I've seen some neat Brinks turn-ins lately that are pretty nice and at 250.00 for a much carried little shot S&W K-frame, how can you go wrong?

I agree - - - Those old turn-ins work for me!

Model 19-3. Bill Jordon would approve!

[nightrunner]

I really wish Colt would start making their double actions again. I'd love a Colt DA but they have no collector value to me, so therefore I believe they are too expensive for what they are.

[Guest oldsmobile98]

From the S&W 2009 Annual Report:

Our primary competitors are Ruger and Taurus in the revolver market and Beretta, Glock, Heckler & Koch, Ruger, Sig Sauer, and Springfield Armory in the pistol market.

The sale of revolvers accounted for approximately $77.1 million in net sales, or approximately 23.0% of our net sales, for the fiscal year ended April 30, 2009 and approximately $70.2 million in net sales, or approximately 23.7% of our net sales, for the fiscal year ended April 30, 2008.

Within the U.S. handgun market, we estimate that approximately 81% of the market is pistols and 19% is revolvers.

We estimate that the domestic non-military firearm market is approximately $175 million for revolvers and $791 million for pistols, with our market share being approximately 46% and 14%, respectively...

Wow. S&W has 46% of the revolver market (according to them, at least)?

I kinda wish Colt or Dan Wesson would start back as well. If somebody made a Python-quality .357 with the interchangeable barrel system of the Dan Wessons, without the S&W internal lock, that'd be the cat's pajamas. I'd probably buy one.

Edited May 1, 2010 by oldsmobile98

[Guest tbone]

I agree with oldsmobile98, a Dan Wesson type of set up would be ideal. I have seen a few on Gunbroker, complete with the other barrels and tools to change them. I thought about buying one, but then decided that I didn't want to re-learn how to shoot with only 1 arm and 1 leg remaining.

[Spiffy]

Really glad to know that all my wheel guns are high end.

[DMark]

I really wish Colt would start making their double actions again.....

Yea, me too!

But I don't think they could ever bring back something like the Python without it costing thousands of dollars. It would have to be a highend custom gun that would be of limited production to a small market of hardcore Colt collectors.

The master gunsmiths who put those old classic wheelguns together are long lost to Colt. You can't get that type of skill & knowledge back overnight.

If you ever take the sideplate off of a Colt you'll understand why. Its like a watch. Screw up something on a S&W and you replace that one part - - - Screw up a Colt and its start all over again matching & fitting each and every part to each other.

Edited May 1, 2010 by DMark