Guns and (non-violent) felons... How do you feel about it?

[Guest (BH)]

I posted this on another forum and unfortunately the mods over there closed it, but I think it's a topic worth discussing.

I saw another thread on here about a guy suing over his 2A rights as a felon and it moved me to repost this on TGO in hopes of discussing the topic. So I'm just going to copy/paste and hopefully we can discuss this issue. TGO has always made for better conversation anyway. Who needs em'

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Link to original thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=519869

So here's the back story. I have a childhood friend who is currently incarcerated, but soon to be released. Growing up, he was just your average middle class kid, then he got into some bad stuff (ie drugs). He never did anything bad to anyone else, he wasn't the robbing his friends and family type drug user. No history of violence, etc. Bottom line: He's a good guy who made some bad decisions.

We didn't talk for a long time until he was incarcerated. Now he calls me from prison quite often and he sounds like he has really made the best of his circumstances. He takes full responsibility for his past and is ready to make good and live the good life.

We were recently talking and I was asking him whether or not he was allowed to shoot guns when he got out. I knew he couldn't ever own one, but I didn't know if it was ok for him to still get to shoot my guns. He tells me that he was told by several of the authorities that he was never to be in the same house, car or even the general vicinity as a gun, no matter what the circumstances. I also work with a fellow who is a felon, he confirmed that he was repeatedly told all of this as well.

So as I see it, this has some serious implications for felons as well as law abiding citizens. So this means that he can never come to my house, be in my car, or really ever see me at all considering I'm always carrying.

How can this be? What if this was a brother? Can legal gun owners not have their family members in their home if they have been convicted of a felony? This just doesn't seem feasible. Honestly, it seems pretty unconstitutional to me. Does that not infringe upon the constitutional rights of law abiding gun owners?

Even if this is not a law, it seems pretty messed up to tell them this stuff. I would assume it has caused some serious issues in the past within families.

I just can't get on board with the whole "once bad, always bad" notion. Furthermore, I don't view drug use as morally wrong. I don't advocate it and I view it as weak, but where I grew up I saw a good many of the people I knew as a kid get tangled up in drugs. I was one of smart ones who never really saw a need for that sort of excess, but many people who I went to school with my whole life went down the wrong path and many of them turned around a few years later and went back up the right path. Very few of them do I view as bad people. For the most part they were kids who made bad decisions, not bad people.

Also, I'd like to add that after years of working in the restaurant world, attending college, running into people I knew as youth, etc, I have met several completely reformed addicts who now have college degrees, families and are all around good citizens. The only difference with most of them is the fact that they never got caught. So I have seen that these people can turn it around for the better and I don't view someone as less likely to get better just because they got caught and punished.

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From another post

What happened was: He was using heroin on a daily basis for about a year or so. As many of you could imagine, he was about neck deep in addiction. He was buying the stuff from a Mexican gang who had pretty much flooded every part of our city, from the mansions to the ghetto, with heroin. The DEA had been watching these guys very closely for quite some time. At one point, the main delivery guy's car broke down. My friend was offered free drugs to drive this guy around for a few days and he accepted. Essentially, he drove the guy around while he sold drugs. The DEA watched all of this and he was charged with distribution. I can't remember the actual name of the charge, but it's something to the affect of "Conspiracy to distribute a Schedule 1 narcotic... etc." Sounds federal to me. Also, this was a huge bust. There were over 40 indictments when it went to court. I'd assume something that big would be federal, and he is in federal prison.

Give it, he never actually sold anyone drugs, never even touched the large quantity of drugs, but because he aided the guy in selling the stuff, they through the book at him.

The interesting twist is that my friend is very thankful that he received such a stiff penalty. He says that he knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong. He believes that had he not gone to prison, he would have never had his old self back. He has since participated in about every positive program imaginable while incarcerated. He does nothing but study and teach others (I joke with him that he must catch alot of flack for being the one prisoner who sits around doing calculus for fun). I have helped him get a job lined up and he plans on going back to college upon his release. Best of all, he has rebuilt his relationship with his family and friends, many of whom (including his father) had just about given up on him. I think he will be alright when he gets out.

I understand these laws have some purpose to them, mainly to protect society from the dangerous types, but I don't see any reason why a non-violent offender shouldn't be allowed to go out for some therapeutic paper punching with an old friend. Honestly, as much as I know that drugs and violence run hand in hand, I think we need to take a more individualistic approach to how we treat drug offenders once they are released.

I never really thought about it until I actually knew someone in this position, but now it really bugs me that there are a ton of people out there who will never have the means to protect themselves or their family because of past mistakes. Don't get me wrong, there are a ton of people who should never own a gun. However, there are guys out there who would never hurt a fly that will never own a gun because they smoked pot in their youth. People make alot of bad decisions and do a ton of dumb stuff when they are young, but people also change. Many don't, but that doesn't mean we should treat the ones who do just like the degenerate murderers and wife beaters.

[Erik88]

While this is unfortunate for your friend there are too many scenarios out there among criminals to where they should change the law. JMHO.

I think he should be allowed to go to the range with you if he wanted to or maybe go hunting with you, but I still don't think felons should be allowed to purchase guns, even ever it was a non-violent crime.

[Guest (BH)]

I definitely think there should be restrictions. I think non-violent offenders should, at least, be able to keep a CA-legal style long gun for SD. They should be able to protect their kids too.

I just think once you payed your debt, you payed your debt. I say no more of this half-citizen crap. Too many good people make bad decisions at a young age.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are some druggies who would never hurt a fly, but should still never own a firearm due to maturity deficits. As I see it, we need a more individualistic approach. There has to be a better way of weeding out the bad from the good. I know that's a tough task to propose. I also know that people know the consequences long before they commit the crime, but let's all take a minute and just think about how we were at 18 vs how we are now.... I can definitely stir up a memory or two that leave me shaking my head at myself.

[Wyldk2]

The thing is, majority of the non-violent drug offenders would not be in jail in the first place if the drug war was ended. I believe if a non-violent criminal ( felon) has changed his/her ways and has put their past behind them, working toward a better life, then yes, he/she should be allowed to have a firearm to protect themselves. Just because you made a mistake which really never harmed anyone( aside from the user) i don't see any reason why he/she cannot have a firearm.

Users should not be put in the same categoriy as dealers or other felons. They need help, not incarceration.

[strickj]

The thing is, majority of the non-violent drug offenders would not be in jail in the first place if the drug war was ended.

Yup, and killers wouldn't be in there either if that horrible, un-winnable war on murder was ended.

I agree that once a person has paid their debt they should have all rights reinstated.

However, when you commit a felony, part of that debt is you loose rights and privileges for life.

It's like they say, "can't do the time, don't do the crime".

[Guest Joey]

I think that's compareing apples to oranges. Drug use is a victimless crime. Murder obviously isn't.

But more to the point does anyone really think that the laws we have in place now actually stop felons from obtaining guns? The only people who abide by such laws are the nonviolent, reformed type such as the friend of the original poster. Why shouldn't those people be allowed to defend themselves?

The really bad people, murderers and such, aren't gonna be stopped by the law. I've heard it said that if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns. I think this discussion has proven that to be true.

[Wyldk2]

Yup, and killers wouldn't be in there either if that horrible, un-winnable war on murder was ended.

I agree that once a person has paid their debt they should have all rights reinstated.

However, when you commit a felony, part of that debt is you loose rights and privileges for life.

It's like they say, "can't do the time, don't do the crime".

Ok, have you ever made a mistake? Something that you wish you never did?

This is not about the drug war, ( my views on that subject are for another time). Who decides the difference between a felony conviction and a Misdemeanor? The men in robes, who follow the laws( whether right or wrong) set aside in motion by those in government to decide what is best for me and you. And who do they think they are, telling us what they think is best for us?

No matter what, former criminals are people like you and me( though i'm beginning to think some on here are still acting like sheeple) and they deserve the right to defend themselves from more violent criminal elements out there. Think of their family, you'd want to be able to defend yours if you were in the same situation. The law is wrong in this case.

When seconds count, the cops are minutes away. And a cop is not going to be able to protect you from every violent act out there you may or may not encounter. The cops are not under any obligation to protect any of us anyways. So the way i see it, if a former criminal( who has had his/her slate wiped clean, Should be allowed to at least be able to protect his/her family since I'm sure the cops won't be serving guard duty.

[Guest cowboy20th]

And just how do we weed out the actual felons from the reformed felons?

Do we sit down have a heart to heart with them and then tell them ok here are your rights and responsibilities as a citizen back.

Would you give your retirement savings to Bernie Maddoff? Even if he said he was a new person and asked nicely?

If you answer yes, you should commit a felony so we can take your rights away.

Should someone so insanely stupid as to inject themselves with chemicals for a quick high that has NO POSITIVE BENEFITS be allowed to actively partake in the decision making and voting processes of our country?

Enough stupid people vote already, look what happened last time.

Part of having committed a felony is living with it for the rest of your life. If felons really want to protect their children, they will do everything in their earthly power to ensure that no child they can have any influence on will make the same mistakes they did.

Most felons don't do that, most go right back to where they were.

I do hope one day we have a prison system that actually has the capabilities to reform people effectively, when someone comes out of prison and says they are changed, that we the people can actually believe them. That idea is extremely idealist though, and for anyone to believe that is possible in the present time is terribly irresponsible.

And I do understand where your point of view is coming from. Your friend, someone you know possibly quite well has obviously done whatever was necessary for you to put your trust back into him, now you view is clouded by the emotion felt through that connection. But if you actually passed that law tomorrow and any felon was allowed to own a firearm right out of prison would you really be ok with that? Do you trust every felon, not just your friend? No amount of test can weed out the bad ones, we have to shut them all off from it.

We all make mistakes, but most people don't commit felonies.

[Mad_Squirrell]

Don't Know if its even possible but if some time in the future when he is financially able and after having been proven to be a responsible contributor to society hire an attorney and file to have his conviction expunged from the records so that his rights would be reinstated . Seems to me to be the only option he has left no mater how futile it may be . I whole heartedly agree that drug possession or use should never be considered a felony.That said he activly and knowingly contributed to the distribution of a controlled substance for profit albiet to feed his addiction he still benefited from the act. And I do feel that manufactured narcotics need to be controlled/restricted and illegal distribution should be criminalized . And because of the often very violent nature of the Drug distribuition world I believe that his conviction should be upheld .You yourself stated he was involved with gang memebers . The point being that we are responsible for our actions and he made a mistake that he will have to live with the rest of his life .Im sorry that his actions have consiquences that prevent him from legally obtaining a firearm .But he will ultimatley have to make the decision to abide by the law or not on this matter. I dont want convicted felons that engaged in potentially harmful activity voting or carrying guns .

This topic goes WAY deeper than what we are scratching here on the surface . And we cannot do it justice in this limited amount of time and space .I hope that through his mistakes he can make a positive impact on others and wish him the best .

Also I dont believe its a crime for him to be "around " Firearms i.e. going to a family cookout where his family owns firearms or even a gun show for that matter . But would be for him to have one in his residence and or in his possession even if its shooting yours .

[Mad_Squirrell]

He has other options for home defense BTW. A crossbow is not a firearm

Edited April 30, 2010 by Mad_Squirrell

[Guest archerdr1]

I was told that a felon can, if not in any trouble for 5 years, indeed have it expunged from their record and rights be reinstated. May be wrong, but I was told that from a fellow that had been walking on egg shells for the past 4 years and 6 months, working with his lawyer all for having a few DUI arrests within a few months, and was looking forward to get to go hunting and shooting again. He said that since getting out of prison, he doesn't even drink anything b/c he wants to make sure that it doesn't ever happen again.

[DWARREN123]

Do stupid things and screw up your life.

[molonlabetn]

Doing drugs is a sign of a personality malfunction (to some degree at least, whether that be minor or major)... and certainly selling drugs is a sign of a societal malfunction. There are of course people who don't do or sell drugs that don't have their crap together either, nor would I trust them with a firearm regardless... but the issue at hand is one of a few ways to indicate how a person handles themself, and I think it would be wrong to ignore that, or make it easy to recover. There is no 'reset' button on life... there are consequences, so deal with them.

It is difficult to have a crime expunged, and it should be. If you have to jump through some hoops to regain things you threw away, then you're less likely to take them for granted again by doing something stupid.

The issue of what is considered a crime, or a felony, and even what is illegal is a totally seperate issue (though a valid one). Even if I held the view that all drugs should be legal or at least not a felony (which I don't), but if I did, that doesn't change the law these people were punished under, and that has to be dealt with the way it is.

[Guest (BH)]

And I do understand where your point of view is coming from. Your friend, someone you know possibly quite well has obviously done whatever was necessary for you to put your trust back into him, now you view is clouded by the emotion felt through that connection. But if you actually passed that law tomorrow and any felon was allowed to own a firearm right out of prison would you really be ok with that? Do you trust every felon, not just your friend? No amount of test can weed out the bad ones, we have to shut them all off from it.

Perhaps you didn't notice this post...

I definitely think there should be restrictions. I think non-violent offenders should, at least, be able to keep a CA-legal style long gun for SD. They should be able to protect their kids too.

I just think once you payed your debt, you payed your debt. I say no more of this half-citizen crap. Too many good people make bad decisions at a young age.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are some druggies who would never hurt a fly, but should still never own a firearm due to maturity deficits. As I see it, we need a more individualistic approach. There has to be a better way of weeding out the bad from the good. I know that's a tough task to propose. I also know that people know the consequences long before they commit the crime, but let's all take a minute and just think about how we were at 18 vs how we are now.... I can definitely stir up a memory or two that leave me shaking my head at myself.

I'm not at all suggesting that all felons should be able to own guns without restrictions. Nobody would think that was a good idea. I don't think that many felons at all should own guns.

Also, I'm not even remotely suggesting that drugs should be legal. I do think that we might need to reform what is and isn't a felony.

I think you brought up a good point with this:

Your friend, someone you know possibly quite well has obviously done whatever was necessary for you to put your trust back into him, now you view is clouded by the emotion felt through that connection.

However, this is not my situation. I totally understand how you would think that. I'm very aware that addicts have a long road to recovery. Although someone may be clean and sober, and really honestly want to stay that way, they can relapse. There are many that never will though.

What I would suggest is a waiting period, observation, etc. I also wouldn't be opposed to certain regulations on the types of guns available to them. My main issue is that theses peoples' families will potentially suffer.

I'm very torn on this issue in some ways. I know that anyone who commits a crime, knows the consequences. I just don't know that these consequences are proportionate to the crimes.

[molonlabetn]

...I just don't know that these consequences are proportionate to the crimes.

This is indeed the crux of the matter, regardless of what should be or should not be or is illegal... because too many 'real', un-reformed criminals or corrupt white-collar criminals cycle in and out of the system without ever being punished proportionately to their crimes... basically, the reward is worth the risk. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many repeat offenders.

Then on the other side of the coin we have the 'casual' or 'unintentional' lawbreaker who may be labelled a felon arbitrarily without consideration for the actual damage (or lack thereof) caused by their crime.

The differentiation is that those people who actually care about and depend on having a clean record and good reputation for their career or exercising rights as a non-criminal elemant of society are hurt by the administration and label of the punishment moreso than the actual sentance itself... whereas those people who have chosen to engage in a lifestyle of crime do not care about the implications of having that reputation or a criminal record because they generally don't plan on having a career, because society is going to take care of them no matter what (by taking from those who do care about their reputation and work hard to maintain it and be responsible). The mentality is the same whether it's selfishly thinking they deserve entitlements from the government or deserve the possessions you own when they break in your house and take them.

This country needs to get back to the concept that one ONLY deserves the fruits of their own labor, whether that be reward for productivity or punishment for destroying someone else's... And the government's job is ONLY to oversee the latter and protect the former.

[Volzfan]

Your friend helped his supplier sell his drugs and he knew he was wrong in doing so but did it anyway. He was no longer a simple user with no victims. Everyone that dealer sold to was a victim and your friend helped. He was caught, charged and convicted. He is a felon for life.

I believe that what was said earlier, that when he gets out. he should go to school and get a degree and get a good job. Maybe the felony conviction won't prevent it. Then work to get the conviction expunged and his rights restored. I don't have a problem with that. If that is the path he chooses then I wish him all of the best.

The question that you posed about him being anywhere near a gun is one that I hope one of our lawyers will explain. I don't know. I never needed to know. I do have a cousin sitting in jail right now with 7 felony vehicular assault charges pending. That's why I'm interested in the answer to that part of your post.

[strickj]

Ok, have you ever made a mistake? Something that you wish you never did?

Man, did you pick the wrong person to ask that question to!

Yes, yes I have. I was put into a chair because of a mistake I made.

I knew each time I hoped on my motorcycle what the risk were.

I knew each time I hoped on my motorcycle what might happen and decided to do it anyway.

My worst fears came true. I ****ed up. Now I'm living with that mistake.

So, yeah, I know all about making mistakes.

Do you hear me bitching about it?

If you commit a felony, you know the risk, yet chose to do the crime anyway.

Part of that punishment is a lifetime of reduced rights and privileges.

They should have thought more about it before they committed their crime.

It's bad enough that the criminals are complaining about getting punished.

It's even worse when non-criminals have bleeding hears for criminals...

[Guest 1817ak47]

it is actually real easy to commit a felony. purchasing a gun from a individual that is from another state w/o ffl transfer is a felony, even that trust old shotgun you father or grandfather gave you that you took home from another state is a felony offense. I would bet cash that many people on here have done this, not supporting this law, but they can staple your nuts to the corkboard for this offensive if they wanted too.

there are laws and instances too that can make it all to easy to become a felon for life, and sometimes just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and poof, your a felon for life and nothing you can do about it.

[monkeylizard]

Nashville Gun Crime Attorney :: Stick to Your Guns :Restoration of Tennessee :: Hendersonville, Tennessee Weapons Crime Defense Lawyer - Hollins, Raybin & Weissman

It looks to be state specific. Sounds like it ain't happenin' in Tennessee.

Federal law contains an explicit statutory exception which provides that the federal criminal offense of firearms possession is inapplicable to persons who have had their civil rights restored on the predicate state felony conviction

But TN doesn't appear to ever restore firearm ownership rights.

and if your friend was convicted in federal court, also ain't happenin'.

short of a presidential pardon a federal felony conviction is a permanent bar to possession of firearms.

[monkeylizard]

even that trust old shotgun you father or grandfather gave you that you took home from another state is a felony offense.

But not if it's inherited. Then it's OK.

[MCSCOTT]

While this is unfortunate for your friend there are too many scenarios out there among criminals to where they should change the law.

I agree.

I can relate to the situation of the OP as I have a good friend who's in this situation. He's been out of prison for several years now, and has completely turned his life around and devoted all of his time toward family and work. Out of all the friends I have, he is the most honest and hard working. Sadly though, he is one of the very very few felons that has or will turn his life around in such a way, which is why I don't see the laws where this is concerned ever being changed. A large portion of criminals are likely to go back to the same criminal lifestyle after their release, or at the very least they have a higher possibility of going back to it than those that have never broken any laws, and any criminal (especially where drugs are related) has a high possibility of violent crimes at some point.

[Wyldk2]

Man, did you pick the wrong person to ask that question to!

Yes, yes I have. I was put into a chair because of a mistake I made.

I knew each time I hoped on my motorcycle what the risk were.

I knew each time I hoped on my motorcycle what might happen and decided to do it anyway.

My worst fears came true. I ****ed up. Now I'm living with that mistake.

So, yeah, I know all about making mistakes.

Do you hear me bitching about it?

If you commit a felony, you know the risk, yet chose to do the crime anyway.

Part of that punishment is a lifetime of reduced rights and privileges.

They should have thought more about it before they committed their crime.

It's bad enough that the criminals are complaining about getting punished.

It's even worse when non-criminals have bleeding hears for criminals...

Well, see i like many on here don't know the whole life story of everyone else on here. I've made mistakes, like everyone else, I made a mistake last year that i will regret for the rest of my life. Not a felony or something criminal, I just left home earlier than I should have and could have prevented a family death and loss of home.

I don't bleed for the criminals, but i see it as if there is no victim, then there should be no crime committed. And I know I am not alone in this.

You wipe your slate clean, you are not a violent offender or have no history of violence in your family, then maybe a committee can assess whether or not you can legally possess a firearm( or least have some of your rights back).

A right is different than a priveledge. We have "the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness" as per the Gov't.

When a person is convicted of driving infractions, like to many DUI's, he/she loses his/her privelege to drive, License revoked. The repeat offenders break the law, even driving without a license. while those who do their time and stay clean, are allowed to regain their license upon completion of their alcohol abuse program, and repayment to society. The one's who want their license back stay sober and don't get involved with any illegal activity for fear of losing what they once had again.

I have a cousin in prison, He was convicted of a violent crime, Do I think he should be allowed access to firearms? Heck no. Maybe a baseball bat for home defense or a crossbow like afore mentioned.

[Mike.357]

aside from possible getting prison time and all that comes with that not being able to own guns or vote is part if the incentive to not commit felonious crimes.

I think if you did the crime you cannot ask for a do over.

As a side note the kid who logged into Palin's email was convicted today of a felony.

I am not worried about him getting jail time out of it, he is going to be severely restricted for the rest of his life. And that will serve as an example to others who would do the same "prank"

[Guest jackdm3]

This thread is almost ripe for a merge.

[Guest (BH)]

Ok, so let me pose this question to all of you guys from the "if you commit a felony, you lose your rights, tough s***" camp...

Have you ever forgot that you had a gun on you and carried it somewhere you weren't supposed to? Ever gone to mail a package and just innocently forgot you were CCWing? Hopped out of the car at you're kid's school? Carried in your car on a college campus?

You don't have to tell the story or anything, but come on, almost all of us have done it at one point or another.

I know these are examples of unconscious felonies, but the fact still stands, you'd most likely lose your rights for life. Every liberal in town would agree that you committed the crime, you lost your rights, tough s***. Are they right? No, but it's all very subjective. Most people in this country, like it or not, would say that a gun offense (accident or not) is worse than a drug offense.

Nobody's opinion is worth more than another, but I'd bet if you posed a national pole for who should get their rights back ten years after the crime, the druggie who knew what they were doing would get more votes than the legal carrier who walked into the bank or school.

Would that be right? No. Either way, the people wouldn't look at it like we would. You wouldn't be a guy who just innocently forgot, you'd be a guy who didn't use enough common sense to know when he did or didn't have possession of a deadly weapon, the guy who didn't take his gun serious enough to constantly know when he had it, the guy who broke the law and shouldn't have a gun if he's not responsible enough not to have it where he isn't supposed to....

Just something to think about...

Edited May 1, 2010 by (BH)