Carry in Hospitals

[Guest rsgillmd]

Well I dont understand how keeping HCP holders from carrying makes places safer? That is strange, The nurse that got shoot maybe should have had a carry permit. How do you feel about employees allowed to carry concealed at work? Hey is there a thread like that how about someone start one...I would love to hear what ppl have to say. List where you work and what you do and if you think it would be wrong to carry at work.....would there be a problem?

I am an anesthesiologist at The Med. I wouldn't carry at work, because a) I think it would be hard to conceal in scrubs, the general public is too likely to become nervous at the sign of a handgun -- I don't need to add to the anxiety of patients about to undergo surgery, c) just another thing to take off if I have to go to MRI, and d) parts of The Med are considered UT -- so state law would have to be changed.

However, considering the patient population I would hope the security guards would be armed -- but they aren't. I've had some boyfriends/family members threaten to get physical towards some patients in the OB area. Even someone unarmed but high on drugs can be quite dangerous. The ER is probably another high risk area.

Edited May 8, 2010 by rsgillmd
Added (d)

[Mad_Squirrell]

If you see an unarmed security guard they are there for one primary reason with only simple functions and authority .

The reason is Insurance. Their liability premiums go down with an unarmed security guard. They go up if they have an armed guard(again liability issues).

The guards primary responsibilities are for making sure the people are correctly parked not blocking fire lanes or driveways etc .,look for signs of forced or illegal entry , find safety hazards , and direct the flow of people in the event of an emergency . Other wise all they do is observe and report. They are not to get into an altercation with someone. If the person does not comply with simple commands then they are required usually to call the police to deal with the issue . Usually armed guards are private police officers or campus police and have full rights to make an arrest and are authorized to use deadly force if necessary by the state . Erlanger hospital in Chattanooga has a police dept . that handles security for them .So does the state run college campuses.

[Punisher84]

If you see an unarmed security guard they are there for one primary reason with only simple functions and authority .

The reason is Insurance. Their liability premiums go down with an unarmed security guard. They go up if they have an armed guard(again liability issues).

The guards primary responsibilities are for making sure the people are correctly parked not blocking fire lanes or driveways etc .,look for signs of forced or illegal entry , find safety hazards , and direct the flow of people in the event of an emergency . Other wise all they do is observe and report. They are not to get into an altercation with someone. If the person does not comply with simple commands then they are required usually to call the police to deal with the issue . Usually armed guards are private police officers or campus police and have full rights to make an arrest and are authorized to use deadly force if necessary by the state . Erlanger hospital in Chattanooga has a police dept . that handles security for them .So does the state run college campuses.

What's your basis of info for that? Unarmed guards are licensed by the state too. Private guards/officers are hired by private healthcare companies, which is my case. They have the same latitude and training as an armed guard minus the firearms portion. Some, again in my case, FAR exceed the minimum training requirements set forth by the state.

I've been accused of being "an 8 dollar an hour security guard" on here before and I'll tell you that is far from the case. I'm unarmed and non-commissioned, but that's where the difference ends. I frequently make arrests (detain whatever you want to call it) and intervene in physical situations.

Granted, I'd love to be armed, but it doesn't mean we don't do anything and wait for the police to show up. In about 2 1/2 years of work I've made quite a few good arrests, some felony fugitives, gotten into more than my fair share of scraps, found drugs, guns, etc. I'm not bragging or trying to come across as a tough ass. My workload is FAR LESS than MPD or Shelby County, but we get the same crime and the same criminals and we do what we can to make sure our staff stays safe and that means going well beyond observing and reporting.

[Mad_Squirrell]

What's your basis of info for that? Unarmed guards are licensed by the state too.

I respect your profession and I also worked for two different private security firms in Chattanooga for approximately 5 years combined. and in almost all instances unarmed security guards are primarily for a insurance break to the owner of the establishment .Legally speaking as a private security officer you can detain someone until the authorities arrive but cannot forceably place them under arrest ,physically restrain or imprison them . You can forceably remove someone from the premises if necessary but you cannot arrest them.But can make them believe that they have to comply with your detention peaceably till the authorities arrive .What your legal rights and company regulations allow you to do are two different things as well . Some posts depending on their primary purpose and function are restricted from entering into an altercation with someone. That is not to be confused with confrontation mind you . If they witness a crime in action tough they are in most instances are to observe and immediately report the incident to give the proper authorities accurate information and not confront them . In some instances they are allowed to inform them that they are trespassing. Most security officers should be deemed as watchmen more than officers but it does sound more official. I'm not speaking of armed bank guards or armored car personnel they also do not have the right to forceably arrest ,but can use deadly force if the threat emerges.

I also underwent the training and certification to be "licensed" as a security officer

But were not legally able to physically restrain someone unless they were an immediate threat to themselves or others . There was a distinct difference in the terminology between peaceably detain and making a forceable arrest

Edited May 8, 2010 by Mad_Squirrell

[Mad_Squirrell]

In your instance I think you are legally justified in making arrests/detaining but to the average "No gun barney fife" that I was affectionately called if I recall on more than one occasion. we were there just to Observe and Report.

[kb4ns]

...you cannot arrest them..

I believe Title 40, chapter 7, part 1 of TCA would beg to differ.

[Punisher84]

I believe Title 40, chapter 7, part 1 of TCA would beg to differ.

Thank ya sir. Specifically this part Mad Squirrel.

40-7-109. Arrest by private person — Grounds. —

(a) A private person may arrest another:

(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

( A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to the provisions of §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

Sounds like you're confusing what you're companies didn't want you to do with what you are legally allowed to do. Believe me, I'm sure I'd have heard about not being able to detain anyone by force after some of the incidents I've been involved in.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Punisher84

[VolunteerGuns]

A security guard has NO MORE right to make an arrest than any other citizen. I have the same powers to arrest the security guard if I witness him violating the law as he does me.

The thing about arrest by private citizen is the fact that there is NO PROTECTION or immunity granted for the private citizen enforcing the arrest. You'd better make D*&M sure you are in the right by making the arrest and you still face the possibility of getting into more legal problems than the BG. When it turns out the BG didn't commit the crime, or manages to slip out of and beat the charge....

Uh-oh,

(In Tennessee, A person commits false imprisonment (a Class A misdemeanor) when he or she knowingly removes or confines another unlawfully so as to interfere substantially with the other's liberty. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-302)

[Punisher84]

A security guard has NO MORE right to make an arrest than any other citizen. I have the same powers to arrest the security guard if I witness him violating the law as he does me.

The thing about arrest by private citizen is the fact that there is NO PROTECTION or immunity granted for the private citizen enforcing the arrest. You'd better make D*&M sure you are in the right by making the arrest and you still face the possibility of getting into more legal problems than the BG. When it turns out the BG didn't commit the crime, or manages to slip out of and beat the charge....

Uh-oh,

(In Tennessee, A person commits false imprisonment (a Class A misdemeanor) when he or she knowingly removes or confines another unlawfully so as to interfere substantially with the other's liberty. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-302)

Ok and your relevant point to the discussion? Even if they "beat the charge" it doesn't mean the arrest was bad. Charges get dropped or lowered all the time.

You're right that no one but police have true powers of arrest, but TN law is very clear about what's required for a citizen's arrest.

There is also a difference between the amount of training and type of guard that small businesses hire and contract, and the type of security officers that a multi-billion dollar organization hires to protect it's staff, campus, and interests armed or not.

Seems like a couple people are talking out of their ass in this thread.

[Guest NotPBFree]

Vanderbilt Medical Center (Nashville) is NOT posted at the main doors or the Vanderbilt Clinic. It is posted at the entrance to the ER (oddly enough, that is the one door with a metal detector). One door to Med Center East has a circle / slash.

In any event, it is part of Vanderbilt University but you cannot tell that from any signage. They also have the largest private police force in the state complete with swat team.

[Guest rsgillmd]

I'm working today and talked with one of the security guards at The Med (Memphis). They are employed by Guardsman. He said the guards are not armed with anything other than their own bodies and radios.

He expressed the desire to have something for self defense, but is not sure who is limiting him. He thinks it may be the company, not necessarily The Med administration. At least he is a big guy. He expressed greater concern for his more normal sized coworkers. At least I got him thinking about the topic.

[kb4ns]

Sounds like you're confusing what you're companies didn't want you to do with what you are legally allowed to do.

That's what I figured, too. With the concerns everyone has about liability these days, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if a company had rules against force and/or detaining.

A security guard has NO MORE right to make an arrest than any other citizen.

This is true. But what more does a security officer need? The statement made was "you cannot arrest them", which is incorrect. Anyone can arrest 'them'. Your later statements are correct, though, regarding immunity and such.

[VolunteerGuns]

Correct.

:slapfight:

But my issue is with the feel of some previous posts seeming to infer that ALL security guards as "Paul Blart-Mall Cop" are trained, charged and dutied with the same responsibilities as Security police such as Vandy U Police.

This simply isn't true. Armed and unarmed security require state licensure, BUT security POLICE are commisioned, sworn and POST certified law officers. This is a HUGE difference.

As stated in an earlier post a majority of employers now do hire security firms and proprietary security departments practice the "detect, deter, observe and report" methodology. Security officers are not required to make arrests, but have the authority to make a citizen's arrest, or otherwise act as an agent of law enforcement at the request of a police officer, sheriff and others.

In addition to the methodology mentioned above, a private security officer's primary duty is the prevention and deterrence of crime. A company often times chooses to have restrict guards from citizen's arrests for fear of liability.

Just my

HERE WE GO!

[kb4ns]

HERE WE GO!

Haha. As far as the campus police thing, I wouldn't even call them "security police". They're just police. The officers at the U of Memphis have a "mutual aid contract" with the city of Memphis which allows MPD jurisdiction on campus as well as giving U of M officers citywide jurisdiction. The U of M officers carry City of Memphis ticket books, go to Memphis traffic court, take calls in the city near the University when MPD gets backed up (read: all the time). They have even been known to work some special assignments elsewhere in the city (such as during Operation Blue Crush - In 2006, they had officers working "the crush" in Orange Mound and Binghampton).

Now most colleges have a security force as well that handles things like unlocking / locking buildings, routine building checks, escorts, etc, but they're not POST certified officers like the PD officers are.

From your previous post, it looks like you're already aware of the campus police issue, but I added the previous paragraph for anyone else that might read over it and find it interesting. If a UMPD cop tries to pull you over on the opposite end of town, far from campus, don't give 'em the finger and drive on.

[Punisher84]

I'd categorize the whole security/police thing into about 5 columns based on training and what they are allowed to do.

1.Security Guards unarmed

2.Security Officers armed and unarmed

3.Campus Security armed and unarmed

4.Campus Police

5.City/County/State Police

I fall into #3 as I figure most healthcare/college campus officers would. I think the people Adamween are referring to would be in the 1 or 2 category and will be wishing you a happy day from the Wackenhut truck or at the movie theater if you live here in Memphis lol

Although the movie theater guys here are something to behold, but I think they are mostly off duty PD.

[Chucktshoes]

Although the movie theater guys here are something to behold, but I think they are mostly off duty PD.

There's a reason I netflix everything.

[Daps]

At Jackson General the ER has signs up but don't recall seeing any when I went through the main doors. They normally have a Sheriff Deputy or Jackson Police officer sitting at the desk along with security guys

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't put the red slash up.

I hardly go to the hospital unless I'm taking an older relative to the ER. The few times I went to visit someone and knew I was going to be parking in the parking garage, conceal meant conceal