First Denial, Appeal, Now to the FBI

[Guest dedzone]

Hi For the first time EVER I was denied the other day while purchasing a little Walther for my wife for our anniversary. I had a simple assault (not domestic) in 1996. Basically a shoving match with a drunk. No biggie but I was convicted and that was that. No jail, etc. Anyway - it has NEVER caused a problem. I usually get delayed (half hour here or there) while they look it up and see that it was not domestic. But this time I was instantly denied. Even ran my social. So I appealed immediately. They took 18 days to get back with me although i contacted them at day 15

On day 18 I get a letter stating that I was changed to conditional proceed (for all that is worth - the FFL won't transfer..) and I am told to appeal to the NICS system. I call and get a very nice lady working the second shift up on the hill and she tells me (after 20 or so minutes of looking for the record in the computer) that it was indeed the 1996 assault. I asked why it has never caused a problem before and she said the law recently changed and that ANY assault w/conviction will be denied regardless of whether it was domestic or not.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so - does anyone have any advice? I am going forward with the appeal as well as going to try to get my $$ back from the FFL (Gun City has the gun in the safe right now and my money in the till....)

Thanks....

Howard

Edited April 29, 2010 by dedzone
Keyboard slip....

[Oh Shoot]

Hi For the first time EVER I was denied the other day while purchasing a little Walther for my wife for our anniversary. I had a simple assault (not domestic) in 1996. Basically a shoving match with a drunk. No biggie but I was convicted and that was that. No jail, etc. Anyway - it has NEVER caused a problem. I usually get delayed (half hour here or there) while they look it up and see that it was not domestic. But this time I was instantly denied. Even ran my social. So I appealed immediately. They took 18 days to get back with me although i contacted them at day 15

On day 18 I get a letter stating that I was changed to conditional proceed (for all that is worth - the FFL won't transfer..) and I am told to appeal to the NICS system. I call and get a very nice lady working the second shift up on the hill and she tells me (after 20 or so minutes of looking for the record in the computer) that it was indeed the 1996 assault. I asked why it has never caused a problem before and she said the law recently changed and that ANY assault w/conviction will be denied regardless of whether it was domestic or not.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so - does anyone have any advice? I am going forward with the appeal as well as going to try to get my $$ back from the FFL (Gun City has the gun in the safe right now and my money in the till....)

Thanks....

Howard

I've followed both your other threads.

The one thing I don't get is, this wasn't a felony, right?

Assuming not, and I guess it wasn't as you show having HCP, I don't understand why it's taking so long to resolve.

- OS

[Guest dedzone]

It has only been 20 days. It was a misdemeanor simple assault that was not domestic in nature. It occurred in 1996. I broke up a fight downtown between 2 drunks and was arrested. This occurred in Davidson. Since then I have legally purchased many firearms in Tennessee. A recent change in procedure at TBI requires them to deny any attempted purchase if you have any misdemeanor assault charge - even if it is not domestic in nature. That said - it will be cleared up but not within the 30 period that the transaction is "alive" or before they charge me the 25% fee.

Howard

[Pain103]

If it is "exactly" the way you say it isn't right. Did you contact TBI or contact NCIC/Feds? I have heard of people having issues with past convictions from several years ago and had to have TBI clear it up. If it causes an issue see if you can just get it expunged and take the court order signed to them and it will be gone forever.

[Guest dedzone]

It is exactly as I said. I contacted both agencies as well as a well know firearms law attorney here in TN. They have changed their "Procedure" although the law has not changed. I am not a "prohibited person" because of a misdemeanor - but TBI will now make anyone with a simple assault go thru these hoops. It may happen (i hope not) to a lot of otherwise good people who happened to get in a good old fist fist once in their life.

Howard

[Guest strelcevina]

good luck.

hope your issue gets resolved.

until than here is your new avatar picture:D

[DaveTN]

It is exactly as I said. I contacted both agencies as well as a well know firearms law attorney here in TN. They have changed their "Procedure" although the law has not changed. I am not a "prohibited person" because of a misdemeanor - but TBI will now make anyone with a simple assault go thru these hoops. It may happen (i hope not) to a lot of otherwise good people who happened to get in a good old fist fist once in their life.

If what she is telling you is true; TBI can’t clear it up without changing their policy. If you have a misdemeanor assault conviction the information is coming from the Feds. TBI can’t retain information on you that they got from a background check. So if they claim they are going to deny anyone with an assault conviction; you will continue to be denied.

However… I would be suspect of what a clerk at the TBI tells you. I was refused twice because of a gun possession charge in Illinois that was dismissed. Both times I appealed and the purchase went through. Both times the clerk told me it was because the charge in Illinois could possibly be a felony in Tennessee, even though it was clearly marked as a misdemeanor. She just clearly didn’t have a clue of what she was talking about or why I was denied.

The gun charge was 20 years old and was dismissed. I got tired of messing with the TBI and decided to spend the $30 for my C&R license and figured that would show what was truly going on.

That worked. ATF sent me a letter explaining that the charge was not the issue. The issue was that the FBI records did not show a disposition. So even though it was a misdemeanor charge; nothing could be approved without a disposition. I followed their instructions of how to take care of the problem; got my C&R, and haven’t had a problem since.

[Guest heavybear]

Hi For the first time EVER I was denied the other day while purchasing a little Walther for my wife for our anniversary. I had a simple assault (not domestic) in 1996. Basically a shoving match with a drunk. No biggie but I was convicted and that was that. No jail, etc. Anyway - it has NEVER caused a problem. I usually get delayed (half hour here or there) while they look it up and see that it was not domestic. But this time I was instantly denied. Even ran my social. So I appealed immediately. They took 18 days to get back with me although i contacted them at day 15

On day 18 I get a letter stating that I was changed to conditional proceed (for all that is worth - the FFL won't transfer..) and I am told to appeal to the NICS system. I call and get a very nice lady working the second shift up on the hill and she tells me (after 20 or so minutes of looking for the record in the computer) that it was indeed the 1996 assault. I asked why it has never caused a problem before and she said the law recently changed and that ANY assault w/conviction will be denied regardless of whether it was domestic or not.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so - does anyone have any advice? I am going forward with the appeal as well as going to try to get my $$ back from the FFL (Gun City has the gun in the safe right now and my money in the till....)

Thanks....

Howard

just had something just like that happen,but it was on a assault back in 1994

[TMMT]

It was in the news a few months back that Sen. Lautenberg had added or was trying to add an amendment to some bill that eventually passed and was signed by Bambi for all assault conviction to fall under the scope of his "Lautenberg Amendment".

Try Gun Rights Examiner or another such web site.

I'm almost positive thats where I saw it.

[Guest JHatmaker]

I hope Gun City is cooperative as far as getting your money back or working something out. If I recall, about a month ago a member here had a similar issue @ Gun City and they wouldn't give him his money back.

[gotigers]

That is the first i have heard of denial based on non-felony/non dom violence charges. Total BS. Sounds like the NRA needs to hop on this crap. Some bureaucrat just decides to deny legal citizens of their 2ndA rights. What is next? We cant buy guns because we had a speeding ticket.

I would never buy from a shop that has a 25% restocking fee. The last 2 shops i bought from didnt ask for any money until after TICS replied proceed.

It was in the news a few months back that Sen. Lautenberg had added or was trying to add an amendment to some bill that eventually passed and was signed by Bambi for all assault conviction to fall under the scope of his "Lautenberg Amendment".........

how did our legislature let that pass. OMG. were they asleep?

Edited June 3, 2010 by gotigers

[Guest Knightsr25]

So many refuse to see, that laws like this continue to chip away at the rights of citizens .

[RRMan03]

Wake up people. The game is not over and never will be. And as for your gun retailer,not one person on this site should be doing business with them if the details of your story are all true. They should refund your money until this is settled,common customer service policy, and then all parties proceed depending on the outcome. Do we as a country not have any common sense anymore?

[gotigers]

I see a lot of places with high restocking fees. I understand why they do it. They want to use this as a way of scaring off people that know they cant buy and wasting the stores time. But... The TICS system is far from perfect. Many denials are mistakes. A store should not use the faults of the system to make a 25% pure profit at the expense of a victim of the faulty check system. Especially on a Conditional Proceed.

Charge a small fee for the time it takes for a store employee run the TICS. 25% is excessive in most cases.

I ask stores for their denial policy before i ever start the process. I have been denied due to a mistake and it cost me $60. It took more than 30 days to clear it up. Total BS. both the store and TICS were wrong.

Edited June 5, 2010 by gotigers

[DaveTN]

I see a lot of places with high restocking fees. I understand why they do it. They want to use this as a way of scaring off people that know they cant buy and wasting the stores time. But... The TICS system is far from perfect. Many denials are mistakes. A store should not use the faults of the system to make a 25% pure profit at the expense of a victim of the faulty check system. Especially on a Conditional Proceed.

Charge a small fee for the time it takes for a store employee run the TICS. 25% is excessive in most cases.

I ask stores for their denial policy before i ever start the process. I have been denied due to a mistake and it cost me $60. It took more than 30 days to clear it up. Total BS. both the store and TICS were wrong.

One of the dealers here can correct me if I am wrong, but don’t they still have to pay the state for a rejection? I can see them charging you what their real cost is. Since they charge $10 I assume their cost is that or less.

<O:p</O:p

I have never heard of a restocking fee for an item a dealer has in stock and has simply picked it up off the shelf; that would be crazy.

<O:p</O:p

I wouldn’t think a dealer would think of anyone that is trying to buy as “wasting their timeâ€. I’m sure they have customers that come in weekly and put their grubby paws all over weapons that they will never buy. But if they humor them they may tell someone that can buy.

[Tnscooter63]

This sucks big time, is there anyway to find out ahead of buying? I will be buying maverick 88 soon and have it transfered thru FFL and am sure I was atleast once charged with a simple assault (fist fighting crap) like 30 years ago and I have seen my FBI and TBI checks but dont remember seeing it on there but dont want to waste the money. Could I try and ask a gun shop or pawn shop or something to run a check. Anyone ever done this? I do have my permit but have never bought thru a business before and will this be the same hassle to renew the permit.

[TNRobocop]

I have a friend that had a simple assault charge 8 years ago or so in his own house when a drunk started a fight with him. Before he moved to TN he had to jump the hoops whenever he bought a gun. No other legal problems in his life.

So he moves to TN, meets me, warns me about the delays, then proceeds to do a transfer. He has a HCP that went through ok. No problems, instant approval. So about 2 years and probably 12 guns later, he starts catching hell. Always has to appeal, etc, etc. Always gets approved on the appeal.

So he gets a C&R, hoping that it will cut down on the denials. No-Go, still gets flagged. By this time, he has a C&R, a HCP, AND works as a Reserve Police Officer.

He ended up getting a FBI UPIN. Now when we run a check, we give that to the TBI also (even though you have to argue with them to give it to them at times). They do the check, which of course flags it, they say they will check with the FBI and call me back. About 30 mins later they call back and approve the transfer. So if you are having problems, then get the FBI UPIN. A C&R won't do crap for you.

As far as a pre-check done, they will not do it and it is illegal to use the check in that manner. A dealer also is charged for each check $10, whether you are approved or not.

[gotigers]

$10 is reasonable. Even a little more to cover the time of the employee, but 25% is crazy.

The fella in the last post needs to get his old charges expunged. That will solve it. An attorney and a few hundred bucks would be worth it to get it removed.

[TNRobocop]

$10 is reasonable. Even a little more to cover the time of the employee, but 25% is crazy.

The fella in the last post needs to get his old charges expunged. That will solve it. An attorney and a few hundred bucks would be worth it to get it removed.

Actually the only reason the 25% is there is because people try to buy guns all the time that can't pass a check. It's to waive off the turds out there that cannot buy a gun.

Some people know they can't, others don't know.

It takes the same amount of time to process a buyer, whether they get approved or not.

Like if you know your credit is crappy, why try to buy a house or a new car off the lot?

[robbiev]

One of the dealers here can correct me if I am wrong, but don’t they still have to pay the state for a rejection? I can see them charging you what their real cost is. Since they charge $10 I assume their cost is that or less.

<O:p</O:p

I have never heard of a restocking fee for an item a dealer has in stock and has simply picked it up off the shelf; that would be crazy.

Yes, that's correct. The TBI charges the dealer $10 for each transaction, regardless of the disposition.

I know of several dealers that charge some sort of fee in addtional to the $10. There is one local dealer here where you must pay in full before the transaction is run, then if denied, you are refunded the amount less $100.

Several other dealers that I know of charge a total of $35. ($25 + $10)

[gotigers]

i am sorry, 25% is crap. especially with a conditional proceed.

I will not shop at a gun shop that has that policy. PERIOD.

Edit: i know some gun shops post that policy but only enforce it when someone is abusing it.

Edited June 8, 2010 by gotigers

[lowbud]

It has only been 20 days. It was a misdemeanor simple assault that was not domestic in nature. It occurred in 1996. I broke up a fight downtown between 2 drunks and was arrested. This occurred in Davidson. Since then I have legally purchased many firearms in Tennessee. A recent change in procedure at TBI requires them to deny any attempted purchase if you have any misdemeanor assault charge - even if it is not domestic in nature. That said - it will be cleared up but not within the 30 period that the transaction is "alive" or before they charge me the 25% fee.

Howard

How can you be charged on a gun that was not purchased. No moneys should exchange hands until they have TICS approval. You mean to say they rang up the gun, you paid them, then they did the bg check?

The bg check should come before any money is exchanged. Any dealer that wants my money before approval will not get it.. PERIOD!

It's then up to the dealer weather or not to wait for the results of the appeal or sell the gun to someone else.. It's not a law they have to hold it.. some do.. some dont..

Either way.. F their restocking fee. The gun never left the store.. I would take their asses to court over it..

Regardless of any BS you owe only $10 IMHO. You have to pay that even if you are denied...

NEVER, NEVER, and I repeat.. NEVER! pay for anything you can't walk away with UNLESS it's via credit card so you can dispute the charge if there's any issues..

And if there is a written policy stating a restocking fee if denied.... get the hell out of there... go somewhere else..

[gotigers]

lowbud is exactly right.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

all we charge if the person is denied is the $10 TICS fee.... then we put the gun back into inventory and move on. Now I will say if they really want to still buy the gun and go thru the appeal process then we treat it like a layaway and let them pay for the gun and it comes off the shelf and into the safe.... then we give the TBI/FBI 28 days to look at the appeal and get back to us. If by that time we dont hear anything of we do and the customer is still denied then we refund the purchase in full minus the $10 TICS fee. We just consider this proper customer service. But if they cant get the gun were out of pocket. But hey thats the price of doing buisness. What makes it hard are those folks that know they are going to be denied and have no intentions of filing an appeal... thats a big waste of time an energy.

Edited June 9, 2010 by GLOCKMEISTER

[vontar]

Several other dealers that I know of charge a total of $35. ($25 + $10)

I find that reasonable.

Step 1. Pick out a firearm.

Step 2. Pay shop fee for BG.

Step 3. IF BG pass proceed to step 5.

Step 4. If BG fail, proceed to Step 6.

Step 5. Pay for Firearm, thank your local dealer, Move to step 7.

Step 6. ask about appeal process

Step 7. Exit store like a normal Human