Legal distance to shoot attacker with a knife?

[Guest FroggyOne2]

"repel boarders"

I love that great Navy term! I wish that our gooberment would do the same thing!

[dlm37015]

the thing to remember if envolved in a shooting say nothing but i was in fear of my life .wait on your attorney don't say anything but for the fact that you were in fear of your life. years ago it seems like my instructer said 21 feet but as i don't run very well any more it might be 21 yards for me

[Guest FroggyOne2]

At work.. all we have to protect against an edge weapon attack is "Mace".

[redstategunnut]

a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

( The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

© The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

That said, according to the Tennessee Supreme Court, a persons's conduct and mental state must meet an objective standard of reasonableness for the conduct to be justified under these statutory defenses of self-defense, third-party defense, and necessity, and the mere fact that a person believes that his conduct is justified would not suffice to justify his conduct.

[Guest milkman]

FWIW I have read in a couple of places that the FBI uses a 15 foot rule for their agents, one of those sources was a Tom Clancy Book so I am unsure how truthful that is. But if a knife weilding suspect is with in 15 feet it's a good shoot. I agree with other posters that if a guy with a knife is coming at me I would draw, and if it was apparent that he was going to attempt to attack me I would pull the trigger.

[Guest Ggun]

the thing to remember if envolved in a shooting say nothing but i was in fear of my life .wait on your attorney don't say anything but for the fact that you were in fear of your life. years ago it seems like my instructer said 21 feet but as i don't run very well any more it might be 21 yards for me

"Clamming up" is not always the best policy, especially if somebody just shot some crackhead who had broken into their house in the middle of the night.

[G27]

"Clamming up" is not always the best policy, especially if somebody just shot some crackhead who had broken into their house in the middle of the night.

Depends on your personality, I guess, but when you're cranked up on adrenaline and chatting with 'friendly' police officers, you could say just the wrong thing...

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Depends on your personality, I guess, but when you're cranked up on adrenaline and chatting with 'friendly' police officers, you could say just the wrong thing...

Yep.. K.I.S.S is the best advice..

[Guest Ggun]

Yep.. K.I.S.S is the best advice..

^^^agreed.

[James in Franklin]

The less said, the better.

[bubbiesdad]

the thing to remember if envolved in a shooting say nothing but i was in fear of my life .wait on your attorney don't say anything but for the fact that you were in fear of your life. years ago it seems like my instructer said 21 feet but as i don't run very well any more it might be 21 yards for me

That's what I was told in one class I took. The instructor was a LEO.

There, I fixed it.

Edited April 27, 2010 by bubbiesdad
spelling

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The instructor wads a LEO.

Eh?

[Oh Shoot]

Eh?

"wads" = fat fingered "was"

- OS

[BigPoppa]

Our general advice is something very close to this:

"I was in fear for my life, and fired my gun in order to address that threat. I am happy to cooperate and give a statement, but first I would like to be examined by a doctor, and have an opportunity to speak with my attorney."

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Oh Shoot, I knew that.. but couldn't leave it alone..

[Guest VolGrad]

Don't know about legal but there is the Tueller Drill and practical side

Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

One would think that a gun beats a knife every time. With superior weaponry, the fight should be easily won. But Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department, showed that it was not that simple.

A common test of handgun skill was to start with one’s hands at shoulder level with a holstered gun and place two shots on a target 7 yards (6.4 m) away within 1.5 seconds. Typically, those trained with handguns can complete the drill in 1.3–1.4 seconds, although some have managed the task in less than one second.

Tueller wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover those same 21 feet (6.4 m). So he measured as volunteers raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original experiments by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]

1. The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
   
2. A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
   
3. If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.
   

I've done this drill in class and it was very eye opening. It was rare for the shooter to get off a good shot before they were tapped. Also, consider this ... so what if you get off a good shot? If the armed person is running toward you or even lunging in and you get a nice, pretty hole COM or in the nasal cavity .... do you think you are safe from the knife that is still moving (with the attacker's momentum) in your direction? This is another reason to draw and prepare early .... and with movement.

Personally, if I see a person armed with any weapon (gun, knife, lead pipe, etc.) and exhibiting any type of aggressive behavior I will draw to ready and seek cover (or retreat if possible) immediately. The distance isn't a deciding factor to instigate my action. Any movement toward me or another innocent party will likely draw actual fire. YMMV.

Std disclaimer: There are way too many factors to say for sure how I would act or how you should act in a given situation. This is just how I have it planned out in my mind.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Word!

[bubbiesdad]

"wads" = fat fingered "was"

- OS

My fingers aren't fat, they're big boned.

[Guest Jamie]

The Tueller Drill isn't so much an exercise as it is a demonstration of something I've argued here before: Action is always faster than reaction.

The person that has decided to stab you has already made up his/her mind and is committed to doing just that, usually, before you're even aware that you're under attack.

That leaves you stuck having to recognize what's going on, decide what action to take, then taking it.

That all takes time... Time you may not have, 'cause while you're in the processes of getting things figured out, the other person is busy covering ground and closing the distance.

And I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to be stabbed, possibly fatally, by some yo-yo that dies an hour later in the ER.

J.

[JAB]

And I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to be stabbed, possibly fatally, by some yo-yo that dies an hour later in the ER.

J.

Or even by some yo-yo who dies as he is stabbing me, for that matter.

[Guest Jamie]

Or even by some yo-yo who dies as he is stabbing me, for that matter.

No, the whole "getting stabbed" thing is to be avoided, no matter what the end condition of the stabber turns out to be.

By the way... those of you who've run the Tueller Drill...

You know how well you did or didn't do with it. Now consider how you'd have faired without the pre-warning of knowing what was going on and what was supposed to happen.

In other words, "cold", walking through a parking lot, with no "Start" signal other than somebody tearing out towards you...

Scary, huh?

J.

[molonlabetn]

If the person can close the distance... even if it's 100 yards... faster than you can get away... then I'd say the threat was imminent and you're probably better off to stand your ground and prepare to "repel boarders".

J.

It is certainly true that the perception of 'imminent' may be different for some than others... I guess my point was that if I have the opportunity to avoid a threat becoming 'imminent', I will. Anything more than that, though, and I wouldn't hesitate to fire until the threat is gone.

[Guest Jamie]

It is certainly true that the perception of 'imminent' may be different for some than others... I guess my point was that if I have the opportunity to avoid a threat becoming 'imminent', I will. Anything more than that, though, and I wouldn't hesitate to fire until the threat is gone.

I understand.

Hell, there'd be something wrong with you if you thought any other way.

Here's the problem though... and it's one of semantics; the law says "threat of imminent death or serious bodily harm".

It doesn't say "imminent threat".

A person standing around waving a knife is an imminent threat... a threat about to happen. It isn't until that person actually attacks you that you have the threat of imminent death or serious bodily harm.

And it's quite possible that depending on the situation, location, and you're own physical condition, that once the threat is "in progress" and serious harm becomes a likelihood, that your options for avoiding it become extremely limited.

Anyway, no real point there other than something to think about, and another aspect of the whole self-defense thing to consider.

J.

[Guest db99wj]

The scariest moment with me and my gun and almost drawing down on a guy was when I was coming out of the bank, and getting into the Jeep, he was probably 80 feet away, when I saw him, across the street, in another parking lot. I was about 10 feet away from my Jeep. By the time I went around and opened my door, he was in the street, by the time I yelled to "GET THE ..... BACK" and put my hand on my gun to draw, he was within 10 feet. At that point, he did an aboutface better than anyone I have ever seen and went back to the middle of the street where he then asked me for money. I told him No using about 15 other words surrounding my "No". He left.

That right there proved to me how fast someone can be right on top of you in no time. I was observant, I saw him as soon as I came out the door. Of course, you see people all the time. Even with that, there is a lot to process, and a delay in your thinking/action is quite not only possible, but probable.

If this guy had a knife, and I would have drawn, I am guessing that he would have been between me and the end of my open Jeep door, when I would have been able to fire. It is definitely something to think about.

[strickj]

I think it all depends on what the person is doing with the knofe.

If he's just wondering across a parking lot, then a quick retreat and call to 911 will do.

If he's coming directly at me with no option to get away, then I will probably shoot him.

If he's slicing me a piece of pie, then I will probably wait until he hands me thus said piece of pie before I shoot him.