1911's work when drenched in Mud

[Guest rystine]

Everyone, you must forgive me. I'm not trying to start trouble. I'm just in one of those moods, like when you see a hornet nest and you know you shouldn't throw a rock at it but you just can't help it.

[Steelharp]

It's all good. Heck, you're Jack Bauer.

[USMCJG]

I don't know about the FBI HRT. But I've yet to see anyone provide ANY proof that Delta, SF, SEALS, etc, still use 1911s. And I know that of all the Recon Marines that I interacted with in the Marines, including dozens of guys that I knew in MARSOC, there were ZERO 1911s.

Just cause you saw it on wikipedia or on a forum, doesn't make it true. Like I said, it's just something 1911 guys like to say.

I'll just post one link to set things straight. This is a USMC official site showing actual US Marines using actual 1911's in training in Okinawa- III MEF's SOTG teaches spot-on shot technique, house raiding skills There are hundreds of other examples if you care to find them.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

Awww c'mon now Steelharp...thats no more true of a Glock than any other handgun, just internet rumor spread by kids mostly, who aint even old enough to own a handgun, much less have put tens of thousands of rounds thru one. Ive got pics of MANY blown guns, several H&K's, a few S&W's, ect. Nearly ALL blown guns are from reloads, or barrel obstructions, NEITHER of which are the guns fault.

Now with that out of the way...just last night I had the chance to strip a Rock Island 1911 for a friend. After cleaning and lubing, my last advice to him was to re-spring the gun with Wolff springs, get rid of the full length guide rod [uGH] and to BUY TRIPP REASEARCH Mags. The gun was well made, really decent 1911, but ONE reason many 1911's dont feed anything but ball ammo, is because of those HORRID military issue mags. I NEVER use them for anything , except maybe range time, or trading material. The new, hi-tech mags from Tripp Research and Wilson can make an iffy 1911 much more reliable. The esteemed history of PROVEN reliability,and HONORABLE service that the 1911 pistol has, really says more than ANY of its detractors can ever say,imo.

[RobertNashville]

Everyone, you must forgive me. I'm not trying to start trouble. I'm just in one of those moods, like when you see a hornet nest and you know you shouldn't throw a rock at it but you just can't help it.

Nothing to forgive, really...it's all good.

I don't know why things like this get under people's skin...it's like arguing about Camaros and Mustangs or Ford/Chevy trucks!

People need to buy what they want and what they like - as I said a couple of pages back, I have a hand full of non-1911s but most of my handguns, especially my high-end ones are 1911s because that's what I like and what I've depended on for about 40 years now.

[Jasongar8]

I don't know about the FBI HRT. But I've yet to see anyone provide ANY proof that Delta, SF, SEALS, etc, still use 1911s. And I know that of all the Recon Marines that I interacted with in the Marines, including dozens of guys that I knew in MARSOC, there were ZERO 1911s.

Just cause you saw it on wikipedia or on a forum, doesn't make it true. Like I said, it's just something 1911 guys like to say.

Taken from Larry Vickers website. He is a 15 year Vet. of 1st SFOD-D.

Larry Vickers | 1911 Pistolsmith | Custom 1911 | Vickers 1911 |

"I was also fortunate to be in a Unit where more .45 ACP ammo is shot out of 1911 style pistols than any other place in the world; the ultimate test bed. I learned alot in the 15 years I was at 1st SFOD-Delta about what it takes to make a 1911 work reliably and how to keep it running. I also want to thank the individuals who work in the arms room at the Unit; they will remain nameless but I learned alot from them on making a 1911 run."

[willis68]

Taken from Larry Vickers website. He is a 15 year Vet. of 1st SFOD-D.

Larry Vickers | 1911 Pistolsmith | Custom 1911 | Vickers 1911 |

"I was also fortunate to be in a Unit where more .45 ACP ammo is shot out of 1911 style pistols than any other place in the world; the ultimate test bed. I learned alot in the 15 years I was at 1st SFOD-Delta about what it takes to make a 1911 work reliably and how to keep it running. I also want to thank the individuals who work in the arms room at the Unit; they will remain nameless but I learned alot from them on making a 1911 run."

That about sums it up I would think, thank you Jason

One of these days I will have one of Larry's Pistols

[Guest 10mm4me]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the majority of 1911 bashers are Glock guys, but what they don't realize is that without the 1911, Glock simply would not be anything but knives and E-tools. They borrowed the operating principle from Mr. Browning himself and his Hi Power.

[deerslayer]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the majority of 1911 bashers are Glock guys, but what they don't realize is that without the 1911, Glock simply would not be anything but knives and E-tools. They borrowed the operating principle from Mr. Browning himself and his Hi Power.

I find that the majority of 1911 bashers are ex-1911 shooters.

[Steelharp]

I find that the majority of 1911 bashers are ex-1911 shooters.

That makes sense; if they hadn't had a bad one, then their bashing would be complete ignorance. I have had several, and had no problems whatsoever, except for a Wilson. So my bashing is limited to Wilson's. I would never, ever again own one of those over priced, over tight, non feeding sob's. A defensive, reliable 1911 is supposed to stop a threat at 15 yards every time; not bang a gong at 100 yards. A tight, tuned, target 1911 shouldn't be used as a defensive piece. MHO.

[Guest Jamie]

I find that the majority of 1911 bashers are ex-1911 shooters.

If you define "ex-1911 shooters" as someone who bought ONE 1911... one that didn't work, I'd probably agree with you.

Hell, I don't even prefer autos, but I'd certainly take a properly-built 1911 as quick as I would anything else.

Matter of fact, my only current auto is a 45+ year-old Hi-Power... one with the old internal extractor...because I like the way it and a 1911 operate, but understand that chambering a 1911 in anything but .45acp is asking for trouble.

J.

[Guest rystine]

I'll just post one link to set things straight. This is a USMC official site showing actual US Marines using actual 1911's in training in Okinawa- III MEF's SOTG teaches spot-on shot technique, house raiding skills There are hundreds of other examples if you care to find them.

Touche, the old MEU(SOC) 1911.

What puff articles like this don't tell you is that thos pistols are brought out for MAYBE one shoot a year for weapons familiarization for whatever Recon team (and if they're lucky the TRAP platoon also) gets attached to a MEU, shot a bunch, cleaned, and then put away again never to actually be used on a deployment.

[Guest rystine]

Taken from Larry Vickers website. He is a 15 year Vet. of 1st SFOD-D.

Larry Vickers | 1911 Pistolsmith | Custom 1911 | Vickers 1911 |

"I was also fortunate to be in a Unit where more .45 ACP ammo is shot out of 1911 style pistols than any other place in the world; the ultimate test bed. I learned alot in the 15 years I was at 1st SFOD-Delta about what it takes to make a 1911 work reliably and how to keep it running. I also want to thank the individuals who work in the arms room at the Unit; they will remain nameless but I learned alot from them on making a 1911 run."

No doubt SOF used 1911s, even up until fairly recently, certainly still into the 1990's, when Vickers was in the middle of his SF service. But when did Larry Vickers retire? 2004 by all sources I have found. Lots has changed in the past 6 years.

[Guest CK1]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the majority of 1911 bashers are Glock guys, but what they don't realize is that without the 1911, Glock simply would not be anything but knives and E-tools. They borrowed the operating principle from Mr. Browning himself and his Hi Power.

What makes you think any one of us on here thinks that? No one is "1911-bashing" here, just having a discussion. Most of us know how pistols work.

What's ironic is the fact that arguably the two best pistol designs of the last 100 years came from guys with no formal firearm design background...

Personally, and just my opinion here, I think the difference between the 1911-lovers and those that aren't necessarily on board with that sentiment can be directly traced to how much shooting guys are doing... Almost to a man (excepting Tim of course), every single guy I know who shoots a lot of rounds on a regular basis is pretty much of the same opinion as Deerslayer and I, and when it comes to guys who plan on sending a lot of rounds downrange without doling out much in the way of TLC or who may have to use their sidearm to potentially save their ass, you won't find very many with 1911's on their side.

I know I sound like a broken record here, and It's not that I don't hear the chorus of guys proclaiming how 1911's are so reliable, it just absolutely does not jive with what I've seen, which is 1911's messing up A LOT, cheap ones, expensive ones, tight ones, loose ones. 100 years and you could probably count the hardcore firearms trainers who'd go all day with one on one of your hands.

Edited April 25, 2010 by CK1

[Guest rystine]

I find it absolutely hilarious that the majority of 1911 bashers are Glock guys, but what they don't realize is that without the 1911, Glock simply would not be anything but knives and E-tools. They borrowed the operating principle from Mr. Browning himself and his Hi Power.

I'm hardly a glock guy, and I'm perfectly aware that the 1911 was and still is the basis for all modern handguns. But I'm also able to realize that there have since been advancments in handguns that have improved upon and surpassed the 1911.

Look at it this way. I don't know where I heard this, it may have been from a Vickers article. A 1911 is like a Ferrari, when it runs great it's an awesome machine. But it needs alot more TLC, and is gonna cost alot more, than something like a Honda. Which would you prefer?

Edited April 25, 2010 by rystine

[Guest rystine]

If you define "ex-1911 shooters" as someone who bought ONE 1911... one that didn't work, I'd probably agree with you.

Hell, I don't even prefer autos, but I'd certainly take a properly-built 1911 as quick as I would anything else.

Matter of fact, my only current auto is a 45+ year-old Hi-Power... one with the old internal extractor...because I like the way it and a 1911 operate, but understand that chambering a 1911 in anything but .45acp is asking for trouble.

J.

Didn't the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm get a pretty good reputation?

[willis68]

I would never own a 1911 not chambered in .45 acp I know a few people that have them in 9 and .40 even a 10 mill and they like them, call me a purist but a 1911 should be a .45

[Guest Jamie]

Didn't the Colt Delta Elite in 10mm get a pretty good reputation?

So did the ones in .38 Super, but in the case of the 10mm, it took a little work. ( I think the overall power of the cartridge was the biggest problem there. )

And to this day, there's some people that won't buy a Delta Elite because they're afraid of the breach face and frame cracking.

The biggest problems have always been getting the magazines to work right. Longer cartridges tend to be easier to deal with, from what I've seen, unless you're going to take the route of the Springfield EMP and just shrink the whole gun, grip frame and all.

J.

[Guest CK1]

In the interest of fair comparisons here, what are you 1911 guys typically shooting per week? It'd be helpful to know what you guys are putting these through between cleanings and such...

I'd say I'm shooting on average somewhere around 250rds per week, some weeks more, some weeks less, which for a relatively young guy with a wife and four kids is a fair amount I think (that is, if I want to stay married and still actually get some work done)...

[Guest rystine]

Nothing to forgive, really...it's all good.

I don't know why things like this get under people's skin...it's like arguing about Camaros and Mustangs or Ford/Chevy trucks!

People need to buy what they want and what they like - as I said a couple of pages back, I have a hand full of non-1911s but most of my handguns, especially my high-end ones are 1911s because that's what I like and what I've depended on for about 40 years now.

We all have our opinions. Like I said before, 1911s are kinda like Ferraris, the new fantastic plastic wondernines are like a Hondas. I like playing devil's advocate sometimes.

And you want to know something really wierd? IMHO, the Camaro>Mustang, but F150>Silverado. I know, I'm wierd

[Guest Jamie]

We all have our opinions. Like I said before, 1911s are kinda like Ferraris, the new fantastic plastic wondernines are like a Hondas. I like playing devil's advocate sometimes.

I dunno... I kind'a think of a 1911 as like an old Zippo lighter, and a Glock or other poly gun as a Bic.

J.

[Guest rystine]

I dunno... I kind'a think of a 1911 as like an old Zippo lighter, and a Glock or other poly gun as a Bic.

J.

Zippo=definition of cool It's almost worth taking up smoking again, just to play with one of those.

Another one is a 1911 is like a straight razor and a Glock is like a new Mach 3 or electric razor.

It all comes down to the same principle I guess; on one hand you've got the old school piece of gear, it's bada$$, but requires a little extra knowledge and work. On the other, you've got the new, low mainenance piece of gear. Not as cool, but gets the job done. Is the cool worth the work? That's up to the individual.

[timcalhoun]

In the interest of fair comparisons here, what are you 1911 guys typically shooting per week? It'd be helpful to know what you guys are putting these through between cleanings and such...

I'd say I'm shooting on average somewhere around 250rds per week, some weeks more, some weeks less, which for a relatively young guy with a wife and four kids is a fair amount I think (that is, if I want to stay married and still actually get some work done)...

I'm going to the Single Stack National this week, and I probably have shot 2k since the beginning of April. I cleaned it today (detail stripped). I will shoot another 500 before I leave on Wednesday and only give it a good wipe down before I shoot the match on Thursday and Friday.

BTW, Todd Jarrett posted on facebook today that he shot 8000+ rounds the last two weeks getting ready for the Single Stack nationals. Must be nice to get ammo for free.

[Guest Jamie]

Zippo=definition of cool It's almost worth taking up smoking again, just to play with one of those.

Another one is a 1911 is like a straight razor and a Glock is like a new Mach 3 or electric razor.

It all comes down to the same principle I guess; on one hand you've got the old school piece of gear, it's bada$$, but requires a little extra knowledge and work. On the other, you've got the new, low mainenance piece of gear. Not as cool, but gets the job done. Is the cool worth the work? That's up to the individual.

Probably won't surprise you to learn that I have an antique straight razor in my medicine cabinet as I type this.

Yeah, I've got an electric and a couple of more modern things too, but nothing does my summer beard removal as quickly and easily as the the straight razor does.

But then, I've got several guns of different types laying around the house for "home defense" too that range from BP percussion to quite modern. And I don't think any one of 'em will do the job better than the other. They're only tools, after all. It's up to me to get the job done.

J.

[Jasongar8]

No doubt SOF used 1911s, even up until fairly recently, certainly still into the 1990's, when Vickers was in the middle of his SF service. But when did Larry Vickers retire? 2004 by all sources I have found. Lots has changed in the past 6 years.

Any proof that they have changed? Any reasons why they would change? I dont see a gun that has worked for at least 15 years (in Delta, that I know of) just start having so many problems that they decide to give up on it and change.