1911's work when drenched in Mud

[willis68]

I had a Colt 1991A1, which I believe was Mil-Spec, and it left much to be desired in terms of reliability.

Let me guess it did not like Hollow points? if so that is because a Military Spec 1911 is NOT designed to feed hollow points, they are built to shoot full metal jacket or hardball rounds

In all honesty this kind of test is a waste of time, It is very unlikely that I will ever be rolling in mud and have to shoot my gun afterwards

Edited April 24, 2010 by willis68

[Guest CK1]

Pretty sure my Wilson was designed to feed hollow-points, doesn't mean that it actually does (and it had better when it finally gets back from them)...

In truth, I'd have to say in my eyes any 1911 is suspect when asked to do more than make it through pampered range days now and again, I want to believe, I really do, it's just that everything I've observed with 'em in action says otherwise... Which is why a test like this on an upper echelon 1911 would be so interesting...

[timcalhoun]

Pretty sure my Wilson was designed to feed hollow-points, doesn't mean that it actually does (and it had better when it finally gets back from them)...

In truth, I'd have to say in my eyes any 1911 is suspect when asked to do more than make it through pampered range days now and again, I want to believe, I really do, it's just that everything I've observed with 'em in action says otherwise... Which is why a test like this on an upper echelon 1911 would be so interesting...

I have 5 custom built 1911's of which none can you wiggle the slide to frame fit, and with the slide off you cannot wiggle the barrel when in the lugs. I can run any of these guns 2-3 thousand rounds between cleanings with zero problems. And I do regularly since 4 out of the 5 are guns I use in competition.

When I shot with you all (IDPA) I saw nothing but factory 1911s. I saw some Kimbers, Springers, etc......, but the only top shelf guns I saw was the Baer you mentioned and the one that was on my hip. And the only malfunction I saw that day was from an M&P (might have been an XD, but it was plastic for sure). Also, you need to remember you have no idea what folks are trying to feed them in the way of reloads. Plus you have a ton of tinkerers out there too that don't hesitate to work on their own guns even though they have no business doing so.

All I can say is, that if I thought for one second that running a glock or the like in USPSA competition would in the slightest way give me an advantage I would be shooting them in a heart beat. But I have guns with over 20k without a malfunction that will shoot under an inch at 25 yards and will run and run as dirty as you please.

[Guest CK1]

Tim, with all do respect, if you're talking about the classifier a few weeks back, you may have missed it at the speed you shoot (for those who don't know Tim is probably one of the best around these parts), but I was standing maybe 10 feet behind you on stage 3 and I know you had at least 1 ftf or something (fast tap, rack, bang too) but pretty sure it was 2 (can't remember if you had 1 on the re-shoot too or if that's the one I'm thinking of), also the gentlemen we were hanging with (name escapes me right now) who was shooting a 1911 had 2 or 3 when kneeling at the barrel cover alone... Probably was ammo, but...

At any rate, guess 1911's like to mess up when I'm around... I do have that kind of luck...

I should add, didn't stop Tim from finishing first over all of us and classifing highest on the day...

Edited April 23, 2010 by CK1

[timcalhoun]

Tim, with all do respect, if you're talking about the classifier a few weeks back, you may have missed it at the speed you shoot (for those who don't know Tim is probably one of the best around these parts), but I was standing maybe 10 feet behind you on stage 3 and I know you had at least 1 ftf or something (fast tap, rack, bang too) but pretty sure it was 2 (can't remember if you had 1 on the re-shoot too or if that's the one I'm thinking of), also the gentlemen we were hanging with (name escapes me right now) who was shooting a 1911 had 2 or 3 when kneeling at the barrel cover alone... Probably was ammo, but...

At any rate, guess 1911's like to mess up when I'm around... I do have that kind of luck...

Dude, I did not have a single malfuntion at that match or any match with that gun ever. Trust me I would remember. What I had was a round pop out of the top of my mag during a reload but that was operator error. You see if you get the mag too far forward during a reload it can hit the front of the well and strip that round off. Basically I missed the hole to far forward.

[Guest CK1]

Ok. My bad.

[timcalhoun]

Oh and David was shooting a box stock Kimber (not top shelf for sure). And yes it might have been his reloaded rounds. I'm sure he did not chamber check them as he never shoots that gun seriously. He is an open and Limited shooter mainly.

[willis68]

Pretty sure my Wilson was designed to feed hollow-points, doesn't mean that it actually does (and it had better when it finally gets back from them)...

In truth, I'd have to say in my eyes any 1911 is suspect when asked to do more than make it through pampered range days now and again, I want to believe, I really do, it's just that everything I've observed with 'em in action says otherwise... Which is why a test like this on an upper echelon 1911 would be so interesting...

If Wilson has had your gun over a week, I would be calling them they are pretty damn quick in turnaround. I fortunately have never had the problems that you describe, the ONLY HP ammo I had malfunction has been Hornady TAP FPD, my 1911's each ran over 100 flawless rounds and then choked, my Nighthawk Commander is the only one that has fed over 200 flawless rounds of that, but I only use it in my Glock, I think it has something to do with the coating on the case, hell I do not know but when I have any question about ammo I do not use it

If you have not tried Remington Golden saber 230 Grain, give it a shot, something about the design of the projectile makes it extremely reliable and i have fired 1000's of rounds of it with no problems whatsoever,

[Guest CK1]

Well, thanks for the insight guys, looks like I won't give up on the revered 1911 just yet...

Willis, I'm going to have the gun back any day now and if I decide to keep it (I already have a buyer if I choose to kick it down the road...) I'll try the Sabers, I pretty much stick to Gold Dots for SD ammo, which are kind of a blunted shape and that is what I've had problems with (amongst other things), so who knows... though I've been thinking I might be happier giving an STI a try though...

Tim, what's kind of funny is that a certain Kimber I owned briefly is what started me down the path of 1911-bias...

[timcalhoun]

Well, thanks for the insight guys, looks like I won't give up on the revered 1911 just yet...

Willis, I'm going to have the gun back any day now and if I decide to keep it (I already have a buyer if I choose to kick it down the road...) I'll try the Sabers, I pretty much stick to Gold Dots for SD ammo, which are kind of a blunted shape and that is what I've had problems with (amongst other things), so who knows... though I've been thinking I might be happier giving an STI a try though...

Tim, what's kind of funny is that a certain Kimber I owned briefly is what started me down the path of 1911-bias...

If you are going 9mm or 40 then I would definitely go STI. But if you are going 45 I think that all they do are ramped barrels. I am not a fan of ramped barrels in anything but 9mm 40 or 38 super. I would urge you to go elsewhere in 45 for sure.

[willis68]

I agree with Tim on that, any other caliber STI would be fine but not .45

[Guest CK1]

If you are going 9mm or 40 then I would definitely go STI. But if you are going 45 I think that all they do are ramped barrels. I am not a fan of ramped barrels in anything but 9mm 40 or 38 super. I would urge you to go elsewhere in 45 for sure.

Cool, thanks for the info, jives with what I've observed (seen many STI's in 9 and 40, not so in .45).

I actually am thinking going 9mm as I don't reload and can shoot twice as much for the same money without getting divorced, so it's probably STI (or a slim chance a Tanfoglio and a big head start on ammo for practice)...

I don't collect, I shoot, so I just want to get something that only has me concerned with feeding it and getting better as a shooter (which is exactly why I like Glocks so much), not looking for some other gun.

[deerslayer]

Let me guess it did not like Hollow points? if so that is because a Military Spec 1911 is NOT designed to feed hollow points, they are built to shoot full metal jacket or hardball rounds

hollow points, FMJs, cast lead bullets--it didn't care much for any of them.

CK1, I agree with everything you observe about 1911s when run hard. I've seen the same thing 1000 times, and 90% of the time, the guns that are pissing off their owners say "Kimber" on the slide. Having said that, it's likely that I'll end up with a 9mm Trojan sooner or later. I just can't leave well enough alone.

[Guest That Guy]

Steel plates with FMJ's...I've seen bad things happen with that. LOL.

[timcalhoun]

hollow points, FMJs, cast lead bullets--it didn't care much for any of them.

CK1, I agree with everything you observe about 1911s when run hard. I've seen the same thing 1000 times, and 90% of the time, the guns that are pissing off their owners say "Kimber" on the slide. Having said that, it's likely that I'll end up with a 9mm Trojan sooner or later. I just can't leave well enough alone.

The problem is that with factory 1911's the design calls for more hands on attention than a gun that was designed for modern manufacturing. Plus all the manufacturers are trying to hang all the bells and whistles on the gun and still come out around a thousand dollars. That is a tall order and they do amazingly well, but too many times the ball is dropped. Extractor tension wrong, barrel timing wrong, etc....etc...Probably 85% to 90% run great but as with all things, the bad 10% is the squeaky wheel and gets all the attention. When they are right though, you will not find a more dependable gun.

[deerslayer]

Bells and whistles like ambi safeties and beavertail grip safeties should not affect reliability. Super tight match chambers and tight slide-to-frame fit do, though. Earlier this week, a friend commented that he wanted to tighten up the slide-to-frame fit on his RIA. I told him he was nuts--the gun is already plenty accurate. Why not have the best of both worlds?

What cracks me up is 1911 diehards who claim that mil-spec 1911s are unbeatable for reliability, then quietly add a disclaimer that they were not designed for hollow points. A gun that can't digest hollow points is nothing more than a safe queen or a competition-only gun in my book.

[Steelharp]

What cracks me up is 1911 diehards who claim that mil-spec 1911s are unbeatable for reliability, then quietly add a disclaimer that they were not designed for hollow points. A gun that can't digest hollow points is nothing more than a safe queen or a competition-only gun in my book.

Hardball dropped a lot of Nazi's and Japs... just sayin'.

[molonlabetn]

Bells and whistles like ambi safeties and beavertail grip safeties should not affect reliability. Super tight match chambers and tight slide-to-frame fit do, though. Earlier this week, a friend commented that he wanted to tighten up the slide-to-frame fit on his RIA. I told him he was nuts--the gun is already plenty accurate. Why not have the best of both worlds?

What cracks me up is 1911 diehards who claim that mil-spec 1911s are unbeatable for reliability, then quietly add a disclaimer that they were not designed for hollow points. A gun that can't digest hollow points is nothing more than a safe queen or a competition-only gun in my book.

...or a military pistol designed to run military ball ammo.

I've never owned a 1911 which didn't feed JHP, SWC and FMJ with utter reliability though, and all of the ones I have personally seen malfunction due to anythong other than crappy magazines were chopped and tweaked guns far from the original design.

I have little doubt that if you gave any pistol over to be cut and tweaked and chopped and resprung and reengineered internally by 100 different shops that more than a few would end up running like doo-doo, no matter how solid the original design was.

[willis68]

...or a military pistol designed to run military ball ammo.

I've never owned a 1911 which didn't feed JHP, SWC and FMJ with utter reliability though, and all of the ones I have personally seen malfunction due to anythong other than crappy magazines were chopped and tweaked guns far from the original design.

I have little doubt that if you gave any pistol over to be cut and tweaked and chopped and resprung and reengineered internally by 100 different shops that more than a few would end up running like doo-doo, no matter how solid the original design was.

+100

[Guest 10mm4me]

Any nay saying against John Moses Browning and his designs is blasphemy and treason against the firearms community.

[Ghooge2008]

I have one of the lower end 1911's. A Rock Island GI, It has never given me any troubles, I passed my permit class with it, I take it out on walks and I feed it everything I can purchase FMJ,JHP,Lead cast reloads. It hasnt choked...ever. It was well used when I traded for it and the blueing is awful but It's my favorite gun. It may just be broke in but it honestly hasnt given me any troubles...but I dont throw it in mud puddles either.

[timcalhoun]

Bells and whistles like ambi safeties and beavertail grip safeties should not affect reliability. Super tight match chambers and tight slide-to-frame fit do, though. Earlier this week, a friend commented that he wanted to tighten up the slide-to-frame fit on his RIA. I told him he was nuts--the gun is already plenty accurate. Why not have the best of both worlds?

What cracks me up is 1911 diehards who claim that mil-spec 1911s are unbeatable for reliability, then quietly add a disclaimer that they were not designed for hollow points. A gun that can't digest hollow points is nothing more than a safe queen or a competition-only gun in my book.

You missed the point. The bells and whistles eat up your profit margin and therefore you skimp on the hands on tuning of the gun that is a must. So you get guns that need to go back for tweeking.

[Guest CK1]

I don't know guys.. have to say I'm still 1911-weary.

I know Tim shoots 'em a boatload, but on the other hand doesn't seem to be what you'd exactly call a fan of "off the rack" 1911's either (don't think barrel-timing is even a thought when the production guns are being pumped out)... it's also real important to note that guys like him are a rarity as most 1911-worshipers spend far more time shining them then shooting them.

My main point I guess is that I just don't put much credence in guys stating that 1911's, or even to be more specific, mil-spec 1911's are reliable, as frankly just too many of these statements come from guys who've never been out in the sun or rain with us running around shooting scenarios that are even somewhat demanding, I can't even count how many times I've read range reports about a guys new 1911 that miraculously made it through a whopping 150 rounds or so in one day without a hiccup while standing still in some boring range lane like a future veal parmigiana. 150 rounds or so is a joke, at least 500+ between any cleaning or lube means something as far as I'm concerned and that's just not where the standard is set (even when some cost north of 4K).

Let's face it, a lot of 1911-guys care more about whether their new 1911 has trick G10 grips, 100,000,000Lpi checkering on the frontstrap and Ed Brown over MIM parts more than they care if it has a decent set of sights and it'll make it through a case of ammo without a cleaning... I know that's not everyone, but that's sure not me is all.

What I've seen with my own eyes time and time again is that under duress the 1911 that doesn't F-up will be a surprise.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm a believer in the wonderful single-action goodness (albeit IMO those glass-rod-breaking triggers in a heavy gun can cover up an awful lot of flaws in one's technique). I just am coming at it like a Glock-guy, I want to insert ammo and have it go bang every time while cleaning and maintenance become almost optional, so I'm free to work on getting better.

That said, I'm seriously leaning towards picking up an STI 1911 in 9mm, thing is though, for a guy concerned with reliability and avoiding headaches that stop my progress, from what I gather, the subject of the elusive rumored-to-exist, "reliable 9mm 1911 magazine" is a whole new can of worms...

Edited April 23, 2010 by CK1

[Steelharp]

I just am coming at it like a Glock-guy

So, you prefer the reliability of the legendary "blow up in your hand as it shoots you in the a$$" pistol.

Got it.

:p

[RobertNashville]

This video doesn't surprise me at all.

I carried a 1911 for eight years in the Navy using ball ammo and never felt like I was at a disadvantage should I ever have to use it.

I generally (although not 100% of the time) carry a 1911 now.

I own several 1911s; most now are "high-end" guns but not all and one is over 40 years old...I have no qualms about carrying and depending on any of them.

I also own a Glock (31) and a Ruger LCR and a Sig P220...all good firearms.

That said, I don't think anything on the market today can truly beat the design of the 1911.

Besides, Dirk Pitt carries a basic 1911 and if it's good enough for Dirk it's certainly good enough for me!