Investing in soon-to-be-precious metals?

[Guest Catdaddy]

Just wondering if anyone besides me considers their ammo stashing and/or reloading efforts to be also an investment for the future, in terms of barter value?

I seem to recall a phrase in the Word describing people throwing their gold into the streets, because it was now worthless...

Admittedly, one would have to be very careful in trading ammo in an EOTWAWKI scenario- but...

Have you considered the value of small amounts of ammo in relation to obtaining other essentials in that scenario?

[Garufa]

There are a ton of threads on here about that and none seem to address the basic fact that when it hits the fan people are not going to be very pleasant and agreeable.

What is your's will be taken by force if necessary and not by someone as pleasant as the guvment. Food will be taken first, then ammo if you have any of use. Initially by mobs, then later by organized mobs.

If I were to play these scenarios out in my head I wouldn't barter ammo for a thing. It would be used against you or someone else.

[Mike.357]

I would consider barter of ammo for food but only with like minded people who I knew before the world ended.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There was an interesting article in Human Events suggesting investing in lead. It was a good tongue-in-cheek article predicting the need for bullets in the future. I share your

view, Mike

[Guest Revelator]

Ammo's an excellent investment and will always have barter value. The price of it is only going up over the long run. I agree that if it was the end of the world I would be careful with whom I gave it to, but in less desperate situations I think it'd be fine to barter with strangers. For instance, let's say this country one day suffers from Weimar Republic/Zimbabwe/triple digit hyperinflation. Dollars are worthless, and folks are going to realize the value of tangibles real fast. I'd think that law and order would still prevail, and that you could get things like food, gas, and medicine in exchange for something like bullets.

[Guest Dragonman]

Gold being worthless? Please enlighten. Maybe it is overvalued compared to the soon to be worthless dollar. If so the market bubble will burst and will come back in line. Just like the housing market, commodities (copper, aluminum, etc.) of the past couple years, fuel, ammo, etc. But consider that in places like Zimbabwe (since it was brought up) people are going out into the streams and rivers doing the old panning for gold thing to buy basic necessities because of their worthless currency.

http://perspectives.larryhollon.com/?p=893

Also consider places like Bosnia where folks were hawking their wedding bands for a liter or two of gas. Gold has always had trade value and anywhere you go in the world you will find folks eager to take it. Interesting story about America scrounging the world for gold Sovereigns (Gold coins from the British Empire) right before the first Gulf War to give to their pilots to bribe the locals with in case they got shot down. Don't much think it's gonna go away any time soon.

As for trading bullets, remember that a gun without bullets is just a fancy club. And as said earlier, that same thing you traded can be used against you. Lastly (and most importantly) remember it takes one bullet for your stuff to become their stuff.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If it was an end of the world event, your gold would be

worthless compared to food, water, ammo or several

other types of life value items. You can't do anything

with it in that kind of scenario. It's value is primarily

as a real currency or a backing to one. Besides, it is

heavy. It would be different when society got back up

to establishing a new currency.

Edited April 18, 2010 by 6.8 AR
Sp

[56FordGuy]

Gold being worthless? Please enlighten. Maybe it is overvalued compared to the soon to be worthless dollar. If so the market bubble will burst and will come back in line. Just like the housing market, commodities (copper, aluminum, etc.) of the past couple years, fuel, ammo, etc. But consider that in places like Zimbabwe (since it was brought up) people are going out into the streams and rivers doing the old panning for gold thing to buy basic necessities because of their worthless currency.

After Katrina, New Orleans was not operating on gold. They were operating on a gallon of gas, a loaf of bread, or some bottled water. Historically speaking, I don't believe any civilizations have reverted to gold as a medium of exchange since the Roman empire. The folks in Zimbabwe aren't panning for gold because the world is coming to an end, but because they sell it to folks who sell it to folks who sell it to other folks that watch midnight cable TV and think the world is coming to an end.

But that's just my opinion, and may be worth what you payed for it.

[Garufa]

After Katrina, New Orleans was not operating on gold.

You make an excellent point referencing Katrina.

In the big scheme of things that was a minor, localized event, but the complete social and govermental break-down was well illustrated and is a model of what would happen in any city of this country in any type of catastrophe.

God help us all if something worse happens.

[saintsfanbrian]

Just remember - the government is going to stop making Nickels with Nickel in them so you might want to start saving those too.

As for bartering ammo for stuff - I would only do it in an absolute necessary situation. I would not do it with anyone I don't know. I think I would be okay in a SHTF situation.

[Mad_Squirrell]

If what we are talking about here is after an Apocalyptic event gold will be meaningless until a trade system is re-established if the monetary system is even precious metal based .I think that natural resources more than likely would emerge has the monetary system first .Food would primarily be the most common commodity bartered with and for. Refined items being highly prized would have high value such as fuel ,ammo ,medication. Man made disaster such as a nuclear bomb going off would be a centralized disaster and would make little impact on the world at large and recovery time would be less dramatic . I believe in that situation just making sure I have enough ammo to protect my family from looters and enough ready cash and food to sustain us for a couple of weeks would suffice in that situation.I don't believe we can really prepare for an apocalyptic event because we don't know if we would even survive it . so stock piling in that situation might mean your just creating a stash for some one else to survive or a very interesting archeological dig later .

If we are just talking about our economic system collapsing with martial law being instituted would make ammo be a prized , expensive, and possibly illegal commodity. But look at our 3rd world neighbors that have nothing they seem to have no problem obtaining bullets for what ever their reason. seems every third world waring nation i see pictures of on the tube has no shortage of AK variant weapons and ammo because they are shooting them in the air every time the demon west takes a terrorist hit. Or a religious zealot says something they like .

Edited April 19, 2010 by Mad_Squirrell
content

[G27]

PM's are for protecting/storing wealth not for currency/bartering. I've never found a country that collapsed financially where gold and/or silver were used to purchase goods. You might find a story if you look hard enough, But I've never found it.

[Oh Shoot]

PM's are for protecting/storing wealth not for currency/bartering. I've never found a country that collapsed financially where gold and/or silver were used to purchase goods. You might find a story if you look hard enough, But I've never found it.

Exactly.

Precious metals would likely emerge as a basis of, or at least a part of, whatever monetary system that would emerge well after a total meltdown. In the case of a real Armageddon type deal where half the population or more is lost, probably years, maybe decades.

Certainly for a good long while in a situation like that, with food, water, and other primary security needs becoming paramount, a few tons of stashed gold isn't going to impress those with items or labor with which they're willing to barter.

Certainly, if the US dollar crashes, and somehow our infrastructure remains relatively intact, precious metals will still have immediate intrinsic worth, especially in a world market, if you can still find a way to turn them into goods. This also assumes that other first world countries are still viable entities, though.

- OS

[JAB]

Have you considered the value of small amounts of ammo in relation to obtaining other essentials in that scenario?

I'd be too concerned about the person/people on the other end of that trade agreement using the ammo against me in order to take back whatever they traded for it. Of course, the more expedient solution would be to use the ammo you have - wrapped in a firearm - to obtain essentials. I'm not advocating such an approach, but it would be used by some and if it comes down to survival, we might be surprised what we civilized, law-abiding citizens would be willing to do.

If I knew and trusted someone well enough to barter ammo with them then most likely I would simply share my ammo with them (and, more than likely, they would be sharing whatever they had that I needed with me.) At least at first, these would be people who were close friends and trusted family members before whatever crisis had caused TEOTWAWKI. I might later expand that to include people who had proven trustworthy after the crisis (and, yes, I said trusted family members - as in there are some members of my extended family that I wouldn't trust.) If there were not a close enough relationship that I would willingly share ammo with them then I wouldn't barter ammo to them, either.

Edited April 20, 2010 by JAB

[Guest Dragonman]

Historically speaking, I don't believe any civilizations have reverted to gold as a medium of exchange since the Roman empire. The folks in Zimbabwe aren't panning for gold because the world is coming to an end, but because they sell it to folks who sell it to folks who sell it to other folks that watch midnight cable TV and think the world is coming to an end.

But that's just my opinion, and may be worth what you payed for it.

Might wanna take a look at this. Shows the folks of Zimbabwe trading gold dust for bread.

Rural Zimbabweans are desperately panning for gold powder to ward off starvation | World news | guardian.co.uk

And will also say I know two women that were alive in Berlin at the end of WW II when Germany was losing the war. In the end they both told me that the only folks that ate well were the ones that had gold, silver, or gems. America also reverted to using Spanish silver coins as a medium for exchage in their early days. In the 1800s Europeans minted silver coins to trade with the Chinese as it had a higher value with the Chinese than it did with the rest of the world. In the 70s France demanded that when America was paying back government loans they demanded it be made in Gold bars. The Arabs also demanded that America buy their oil with gold during the 70s. Up until 1964 most countries put silver in their coins to give it trade value. So PM have been used as a system of barter for quite some time after the Romans went by the wayside. And that's just off the top of my head.

I find much irony in the fact that when some folks hoard away a years worth of food they're considered prudent but someone considers storing PMs away for long term strategy and they're considered part of the lunatic fringe. Hopefully things will never get that bad that PMs will have to be used.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Not to pop a hole in your bubble, Dragonman, but in these situations, others -in the case of Zimbabwe, the fools over paying for gold right now, the occupying troops in post-WWII Germany, and the known value of the Spanish currency (far more stable then the fledgling US Govt, and still patriotic, as it was not British) -outside forces creating enough demand for the gold and gems to have value. So, there was still a "monetary market" demand for gold in both cases. The Chinese wanting silver coin was their own perception of value. Basically, all your examples placed an outside influence on the value of gold and gems. An influence mostly generated by the govermental view of rare metals = value. Like Dollars = amount of work done.

In a full on, world wide situation, where there are no outside demands for "valuables," but a severe demand on food, water, and shelter, rare stones and metals wont account for much.

In a Katrina situation, paying big $ for items probably occurred, as the basic loaf of bread probably was worth more than the $2-3 it typically would fetch. Profiteering can be an advantageous thing - for the one who HAS the item demanded...

Gold and gems will have to have a demand to make them valuable. In a limited event, where the government will come back online eventually, gold, gems, and money will have value. No governments world wide? Well...

[G27]

I find much irony in the fact that when some folks hoard away a years worth of food they're considered prudent but someone considers storing PMs away for long term strategy and they're considered part of the lunatic fringe. Hopefully things will never get that bad that PMs will have to be used.

Only because storing a year's worth of food is cheaper and more practical. Not to mention the (what should be obvious) fact that unless stable trade is established, you're at the whim of whatever the general populace values.

The reason people put stock in hoarding away food, water, ammo, etc., is because it provides self sufficiency.

Gold only protects your wealth - good luck cutting that 1oz of gold into a loaf of bread...

[Guest That Guy]

Yeah, I figure 3-8 rounds should get me what I need, depending on how many people are in the room.

[Guest Dragonman]

Not to pop a hole in your bubble, Dragonman, but in these situations, others -in the case of Zimbabwe, the fools over paying for gold right now, the occupying troops in post-WWII Germany, and the known value of the Spanish currency (far more stable then the fledgling US Govt, and still patriotic, as it was not British) -outside forces creating enough demand for the gold and gems to have value. So, there was still a "monetary market" demand for gold in both cases. The Chinese wanting silver coin was their own perception of value. Basically, all your examples placed an outside influence on the value of gold and gems. An influence mostly generated by the govermental view of rare metals = value. Like Dollars = amount of work done.

In a full on, world wide situation, where there are no outside demands for "valuables," but a severe demand on food, water, and shelter, rare stones and metals wont account for much.

In a Katrina situation, paying big $ for items probably occurred, as the basic loaf of bread probably was worth more than the $2-3 it typically would fetch. Profiteering can be an advantageous thing - for the one who HAS the item demanded...

Gold and gems will have to have a demand to make them valuable. In a limited event, where the government will come back online eventually, gold, gems, and money will have value. No governments world wide? Well...

You completely missed the point. You are looking at a short term scenario. The purpose for investing in PMs is for long term issues (1 year+) not a week or month long issue. Those ladies I was speaking of that lived in Germany were speaking about the time the Third Reich was still in existance not the ensuing Allied occupation. Folks knew the Reichs Marks were soon to be useless and wanted something tangible that would hold value, not some worthless script. Same issue that arose with the fledgling American Republic, lots of folks wouldn't honor another states (or banks) notes and wanted something that everybody would honor. Using PMs for Katrina style events would be silly. Would be more apropriate for scenarios like a 7+ New Madrid quake that would effectively cut the U.S. in half travel wise or a complete economic collapse.

[Guest 1817ak47]

After Katrina, New Orleans was not operating on gold. They were operating on a gallon of gas, a loaf of bread, or some bottled water. Historically speaking, I don't believe any civilizations have reverted to gold as a medium of exchange since the Roman empire. The folks in Zimbabwe aren't panning for gold because the world is coming to an end, but because they sell it to folks who sell it to folks who sell it to other folks that watch midnight cable TV and think the world is coming to an end.

But that's just my opinion, and may be worth what you payed for it.

there is agood video with brian william about what all happened in new orleans. would give everyone a good touch of what would happen.

both in and out directions of hte interstates were outbounds and clogged with cars out of fuel and dry fuel stations, mobing, theft, many dieds on the streets and sidewals both babies-elderly in age due to lack of food and CLEAN water, places being robbed, gunshots etc.

search for the video, it is on the internet and not difficult to find, ther are some similiar good ones to see also.

watch the videoX2

[Ghooge2008]

I dont hoard ammo anymore....the ammo I have would be used for HD....i'm not going to go out hunting in the city...I have started shooting and casually replacing instead of just stockpiling, BUT, I do see the need for bartering and I personally think in an event that bartering would be necessary I would think alcohol, cigarettes, and common commodities would be better trading tools for the bartering area that I live in...I am sure there are hunters/people needing ammo but who's gonna go hunting when you gotta drive to get to the woods. we would stay put, eat out of the small garden we have and live off of our preps we have hoarded.

[Guest guardlobo]

I see no problem with having PMs, but am not going to put much money into them until all the rest of my ducks are in a row.

Ammo would work great for trading, but I wouldn't want it to fall into the wrong hands, so would prefer trading excess food, tools, and other commodities.

[Guest Catdaddy]

I haven't stopped in here much lately- busy getting my own ducks in a row. I have acquired most of the brass I wanted to load, but still buy range brass from the ladies who own the range I frequent- it's good for them, too. Food storage and survival supplies are # priority. IF I ever had to trade anno or guns (stocking up on them too) it would be to trustworthy folks, for sure.

As far as gold and other PMs go- I seem to recall a line in the Bible about the End Times, referring to gold being thrown into the streets because it wouldn't buy bread...

I believe that what is coming will be similar to past catastrophes in many ways, but on a scale that would be beyond belief, except that we will be living it.

[Guest Hopster]

Thinking stockpiling needed resources and live in the woods away from civilization is the best option. Problem is that civilization keeps following me. I move to the boonies and the area explodes with people. Cant get away from them.

[Ghooge2008]

I posted a while back and still continue to believe, commodities are by far going to be worth more than precious metals. Cigarettes can be kept for a while in a freezer, and who would care if their stale when they haven't had a cig in weeks, liquor keeps well in a cool dry place, toilet paper keeps well if stored dry. I have also added a large fish aquarium to our sons room...It wouldn't be too fun to drink now...but I think it would be better to drink if filtered than nothing, and it's an extra 110 gallons of water inhouse