AR15 pistol change to rifle, legality?

[andersmg]

I am lookiong to buy myself an AR15 in the near future, I have been pondering the idea of buying a pistol model and then buying a rifle barrel and collapsible stock later to make my pistol into a rifle so I can have two guns in one basically.

Is it legal to do this?

I figured it would more than likely be legal to do it this way rather than the other way around, that is buy a rifle and then convert it to a pistol.

[The Rabbi]

My understanding is that buying a rifle and remaking it into a pistol is a no-no. The other way around is probably OK.

In either case I really don't see how anyone can determine anything beyond the basic configuration of the weapon. I mean, if it has a short barrel AND a shoulder stock then it is an NFA weapon. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

[Smith]

It gets complicated, but essentially the registered lower can only be used with the SB upper or any LB upper. However if you have an unregistered upper sitting next to a registered lower, legally they can get you. The safest way is to have a SB and leave it alone.

[BimmerFreak]

It gets complicated, but essentially the registered lower can only be used with the SB upper or any LB upper. The safest way is to have a SB and leave it alone.

There is no such thing as an "unregistered upper"

I think what you are trying to say is; If there is a NFA upper (this also includes a unmounted barrel) shorter than the required 16" and you do not have either:

1. A lower receiver registered as a pistol

2. A lower registered as a SBR

Then you are in violation of NFA.

I will leave it at that, and allow Frank to come in and write 9 pages of ATF-NFA rules, regulations, and what-ifs....since I know he gets off on it

[Smith]

There is no such thing as an "unregistered upper"

I think what you are trying to say is; If there is a NFA upper (this also includes a unmounted barrel) shorter than the required 16" and you do not have either:

1. A lower receiver registered as a pistol

2. A lower registered as a SBR

Then you are in violation of NFA.

I will leave it at that, and allow Frank to come in and write 9 pages of ATF-NFA rules, regulations, and what-ifs....since I know he gets off on it

You are correct sir. My understanding that when registered as NFA (for whatever reason) they need to stay together to be safe.

[TGO David]

I will leave it at that, and allow Frank to come in and write 9 pages of ATF-NFA rules, regulations, and what-ifs....since I know he gets off on it

It takes all kinds, right? At least it's ATF-NFA rules and not like... I dunno... goats or something.

[BimmerFreak]

You are correct sir. My understanding that when registered as NFA (for whatever reason) they need to stay together to be safe.

Here's the deal;

If you have one or 100 uppers/barrels that are less than 16" you need a SBR or pistol lower.

You can have just one SBR lower, and a collection of 20 different NFA uppers.

So no, the registered item does not have to be with the NFA upper.

[BimmerFreak]

It takes all kinds, right? At least it's ATF-NFA rules and not like... I dunno... goats or something.

Oh, im SURE that Frank can write AT LEAST nine pages on man on goat love...

[The Rabbi]

Here's the deal;

If you have one or 100 uppers/barrels that are less than 16" you need a SBR or pistol lower.

You can have just one SBR lower, and a collection of 20 different NFA uppers.

So no, the registered item does not have to be with the NFA upper.

There was a Supreme Court case, Thompson Center v U.S. on this. Thompson was sending out kits with a pistol and longer barrel and stock conversion to a carbine. ATF sued saying they were sending out NFA weapons and not paying the tax on it (it always comes down to money).

The Supreme Court held that just because something could be configured in an illegal way didn't mean that it had to be that way. i.e., if you have a short upper and a pistol lower then just because you have a rifle lower and could make an SBA out of it doesn't mean automatically that it is an SBA.

Based on ATF's reasoning, anyone with a shotgun and a hacksaw could be prosecuted.

[awdbandito]

Buy a lower and register it via a form 1. Build yourself an SBR. AR-15 pistols get old to shoot pretty quick, IMHO.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Oh, im SURE that Frank can write AT LEAST nine pages on man on goat love...

Only based on my observations the time I accidentally walked in on you in that back room behind the shop. I never knew those kinds of things were physically possible! I mean, who'd have thought that they make leather bondage costumes for goats?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

As for the original postes question, here's the short answer:

Your best bet is to file a Form 1 and register a lower as an SBR, paying the $200 tax. That way, there'll never be any questions about your gun's legality. Besides, $200 is roughly the cost of a stripped pistol lower and lower parts kit.

If you don't want to do that, you're better off using a lower marked as a pistol, rather than an unmarked lower. Legally, it doesn't have to be marked, it just has to have been recorded in the dealer's A&D book and on the 4473 as a pistol. However, let me assure you from hard-earned personal experience, cops, lawyers, and even BATFE agents aren't always up-to-date and cognizant of what is or isn't an NFA weapon, or what is 100% legal.

And, yes, that was the short version. I probably could write 9 pages on the subject. (I actually just wrote a 5,400+ word article on NFA that I'm thinking of submitting to a few gun rags for publication.)

[andersmg]

OK all, thanks for the quick responses, based on what you have told me then I can buy one of these, http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR2115X&storeid=1ℑ=larp22307.gif&CFID=5982623&CFTOKEN=79574532 most likely the 7" barreled version, along with all the appropriate paperwork to go along with it and then I can purchase a 16" barrel and collapsible stock and put on it and it should be perfectly legal in either set up I choose to use it, right??

Oh yea, you guys are cracking me up with the goat love stories!!

[BimmerFreak]

OK all, thanks for the quick responses, basaed on what you have told me then I can buy one of these, http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR2115X&storeid=1ℑ=larp22307.gif&CFID=5982623&CFTOKEN=79574532 most likely the 7" barreled version, along with all the appropriate paperwork to go along with it and then I can purchase a 16" barrel and collapsible stock and put on it and it should be perfectly legal in either set up I choose to use it, right??

Oh yea, you guys are cracking me up with the goat love stories!!

Frank may correct me on this, but our advice to customers is;

Once you take a AR PISTOL and install a stock on it to use as the receiver for a Title 1 rifle, you can't take it back to the original configuration.

Regardless of the length of the barrel (1", 7", 16", whatever) it is still a pistol, thus illegal to install things like vertical grip, stock, etc.

In my opinion, you are playing in a very gray area.

It is not worth the risk, just to save 200 bucks and 6 weeks of waiting.

You can achieve your goals and be 100% legal by:

1. Form 1 a current or newly purchased lower, or Form 4 a lower already registered as a SBR.

2. Have 2 uppers, 1 full length (or whatever length you desire) and 1 in the SBR length of your choice.

Bottomline; Dont risk jail, fines, LE headaches by being a cheap ass and trying to save 200 bucks.

[andersmg]

Frank may correct me on this, but our advice to customers is;

Once you take a AR PISTOL and install a stock on it to use as the receiver for a Title 1 rifle, you can't take it back to the original configuration.

Regardless of the length of the barrel (1", 7", 16", whatever) it is still a pistol, thus illegal to install things like vertical grip, stock, etc.

In my opinion, you are playing in a very gray area.

It is not worth the risk, just to save 200 bucks and 6 weeks of waiting.

You can achieve your goals and be 100% legal by:

1. Form 1 a current or newly purchased lower, or Form 4 a lower already registered as a SBR.

2. Have 2 uppers, 1 full length (or whatever length you desire) and 1 in the SBR length of your choice.

Bottomline; Dont risk jail, fines, LE headaches by being a cheap ass and trying to save 200 bucks.

I have never purchased an EBR, or SBR before so I have no knowledge of the laws, that is why I am asking, I am not trying to be a "cheap ass" although I don't see the need to spend money I don't have to since I am not filthy rich.

Thank you for your information on this subject. So what you are saying is I can buy the rifle first and then change it legally to a pistol?

[BimmerFreak]

I have never purchased an EBR, or SBR before so I have no knowledge of the laws, that is why I am asking, I am not trying to be a "cheap ass" although I don't see the need to spend money I don't have to since I am not filthy rich.

Thank you for your information on this subject. So what you are saying is I can buy the rifle first and then change it legally to a pistol?

No offense on the "cheap ass" comment. It wasnt directed at you, just in general. Like; its better to spend 200, rather than risk 10 grand by not following the (silly) NFA rules.

Ok, let me break this down a bit further;

The pistol is an AR variant that has never been a rifle, and was declared a pistol on the bound book and 4473.

This item must NEVER have a stock or forward grip installed.

With this item, you may install a 16" barrel, 20" barrel, 65" barrel...whatever.

THE ONLY way to have the options you wish, is to complete the paperwork required to own a SBR.

This will allow you to run that lower on 7" guns, 20" guns, whatever you want.

It will allow you to remove the buttstock, install a 7" barrel, and use it like a pistol. (like in the RRA link you provided)

And to answer your rifle to pistol question. NO.

Once it is a rifle, you can not simple say "hey, heres my pistol" and remove the buttstock, and install a barrel less than 16" in length.

[andersmg]

No offense on the "cheap ass" comment. It wasnt directed at you, just in general. Like; its better to spend 200, rather than risk 10 grand by not following the (silly) NFA rules.

Ok, let me break this down a bit further;

The pistol is an AR variant that has never been a rifle, and was declared a pistol on the bound book and 4473.

This item must NEVER have a stock or forward grip installed.

With this item, you may install a 16" barrel, 20" barrel, 65" barrel...whatever.

THE ONLY way to have the options you wish, is to complete the paperwork required to own a SBR.

This will allow you to run that lower on 7" guns, 20" guns, whatever you want.

It will allow you to remove the buttstock, install a 7" barrel, and use it like a pistol. (like in the RRA link you provided)

And to answer your rifle to pistol question. NO.

Once it is a rifle, you can not simple say "hey, heres my pistol" and remove the buttstock, and install a barrel less than 16" in length.

Alright, now you are really explaining it to me so I can better understand the rules! I see herogear has a nice SBR on the gunbroker site right now, if I were to bid on this rifle once purchased could I just come to your location and fill out all the paperwork and pay the fees to finalize the deal, or will I need to find a FFL here that you would have to ship it to??

[BimmerFreak]

Alright, now you are really explaining it to me so I can better understand the rules! I see herogear has a nice SBR on the gunbroker site right now, if I were to bid on this rifle once purchased could I just come to your location and fill out all the paperwork and pay the fees to finalize the deal, or will I need to find a FFL here that you would have to ship it to??

We have several SBR rifles in stock, and can help with the entire paperwork process.

We can also help with the 16" barrel upper if you want to buy the entire thing as one unit.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

Hypothetical. If you bought an AR pistol. Removed the barrel and sold, surrendered, or destroyed it. After which you bought a stock and full length barrel. Wouldn't this be a legal way to convert?

[andersmg]

We have several SBR rifles in stock, and can help with the entire paperwork process.

We can also help with the 16" barrel upper if you want to buy the entire thing as one unit.

Sounds good to me! I may have to make a road trip before long to come see what yall have and talk ftf with you guys.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Guys, let me clear it up, so it looks a little more like mud. (Kind of like the NFA itself.)

If you had an AR pistol lower, with a <16" barrel, you can not put a VFG on it while it is in pistol configuration. However, if you convert it to rifle configuration, for however long you deem necessary, you can add all the attachments you desire.

Here's the layout of steps necessary to avoid prosecution:

Assembly, from pistol to rifle:

Remove <16" upper reciever.

Install >16" reciever. (Now, it's still a pistol, albeit a long one.)

Remove pistol-style stock extension.

Install rifle-style stock extension / stock body. (Now, it is a rifle, as it can now be fired from the shoulder.)

Install vertical foregrip. (A rifle can have all the doo-dads hanging off of it that you like.)

Disassembly; going from rifle, back to pistol:

Remove vertical foregrip.

Remove rifle stock extension / body.

Install pistol stock extension. (Now, it's back to being a long handgun.)

Remove >16" upper. (Now, it's an unbarreled handgun again.)

Install <16" upper. (Now, it's just another AR pistol again.)

Here's where your problems are going to arise:

You have a lower marked "pistol," but Officer Joe Thinblueline sees a rifle, and doesn't understand the difference. You probably won't have aproblem, as he might not even notice it says pistol. If he doesn't, and doesn't buy your explanation of the legalities, you might have to explain it to a prosecutor before you get your pistol back.

You have an unmarked lower, which the FFL sold you as a pistol. Officer Thinblueline sees it, and isn't familiar with AR pistols. He sees it as an illegal SBR. If you can't explain the legalities to his liking, you might be in front of a judge, hoping your attorney can do his job right.

You have your pistol configured as a rifle, and take it to the range. You also bring along the lower reciever you normally use with the >16" upper, and it has a stock attached, because it's a pain in the butt to remove them at the range. While your friend is shooting your pistol, currently configured as a rifle, Officer Thinblueline approaches. He sees an AR lower, with stock, but no upper attached, and a <16" upper sitting very close by. Believing that you have an illegal SBR, he arrests the lot of you, and you get to fight it out in court.

As you can see, there are several reasons why it might be a legal PITA to build an AR pistol. However, if you use common sense and can articulate the legalities of it fairly well, you shouldn't have a problem. In the third situation, probably the easiest remedy is to not have the <16" lower sitting out in the open while you're using a >16" upper onthe pistol and a non-SBR lower is present and unadorned with an upper.