What if

[Hitower]

This thought crossed my mind a few times and I don't remember it being discussed here or in my HCP class. So someone is coming at you, no weapon, nothing in hand to do you any harm except them-self. Maybe someone just ticked at you or you looked at someone the wrong way or whatever and now they want a fight. I don't believe this is a situation to draw in for sure, however, my concern is that i have a pistol on me. I do not want them to get at it, nor do I want it to get loose during a physical altercation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type going out looking for fights and haven't been in a non sporting one since high school but I would like to be prepared for any situation as I think is why most of us have our HCP. So what is the proper response to a not scared for your life situation when carrying?

[Guest jackdm3]

If he looks like Deebo, he's dead!

Edited April 16, 2010 by jackdm3

[Guest oldsmobile98]

I am no expert; this is just my thoughts mixed with what they told me in HCP class.

Only draw if you have exhausted all other options. Try to defuse it if you possibly can. If you can make a non-cowardly exit, then do so. If you draw, you should expect to go to court. But, as they say, better judged by twelve than carried by six.

The key legal question is this:

Is the aggressor presenting an imminent threat of either death or grievous bodily harm? If a jury of your peers thinks so, then they will acquit you.

GBH does NOT include a broken nose. If you don't think the aggressor will either kill you or put you in the hospital, you should not draw. As far as weapon retention, this is where having a quality holster comes into play. The aggressor does not have to have a weapon in order to present a threat of death or GBH. Example: old woman vs. big strong angry dude.

Hope this helps. Somebody else, please feel free to jump in and corroborate or correct me.

Edited April 16, 2010 by oldsmobile98

[Oh Shoot]

...

Hope this helps. Somebody else, please feel free to jump in and corroborate or correct me.

As always, it comes down to was it reasonable to think you were in fear of loss of life or serious injury.

You make that determination first, the police and the DA make that determination second, and it it doesn't go your way, then a judge/jury make the final determination.

I can tell you that even though I'm a fairly large guy, at almost 62, I consider at least serious injury a lot more likely than I used to from anyone bellicose enough to physically go after me.

- OS

[Tango down]

If he looks like Deebo, he's dead!

Hilarious! You wouldn't be able to draw and you'd probably get your weapon and nice quality holster stolen if you got knocked the ugh huh out. Lol

[TMMT]

Here is something else to think about.

At what point does a slight "tune up" or a "thumping" turn into great bodily harm?

And will you still be able to react once you realize your attacker is not just going to pop you once or twice but he is going to beat you down because his rage is growing with each punch?

Losing control of your weapon once he knocks you out, then shoots you with your own gun?

What about size disparity? You weigh 150 pounds and your attacker is a 300 pound professional body builder and wrestler, who also knows judo. What then?

What if your attacker can land a single punch with the force that would knock Mike Tyson unconscious?

[Tango down]

Good question though - I have thought about what my actions would be if faces with the same scenario. I had a guy have some road rage at me once and actually got out of his car and started at me at a red light several years ago. I was carrying at the time and had to quickly weigh options. I never knew what I did to make him angry. About the time he started walking toward me, I took a right turn and drove away. Not sure where it would have went if he would have made it over to my truck. Every since then I have always thought about your exact scenario. In the end we must exercise precise judgement and good common sense. What scares me is that in the world today common sense isn't so common anymore.

[Tango down]

And will you still be able to react once you realize your attacker is not just going to pop you once or twice but he is going to beat you down because his rage is growing with each punch?

Losing control of your weapon once he knocks you out, then shoots you with your own gun?

What about size disparity? You weigh 150 pounds and your attacker is a 300 pound professional body builder and wrestler, who also knows judo. What then?

What if your attacker can land a single punch with the force that would knock Mike Tyson unconscious?

I think so much rides on the circumstances behind the confrontation. This is what the jury will come to know. If I feel I may become incapacitated, I believe I would draw and then negotiate before using deadly force.

[TMMT]

I think so much rides on the circumstances behind the confrontation. This is what the jury will come to know. If I feel I may become incapacitated, I believe I would draw and then negotiate before using deadly force.

But something to add to your thinking is that a Jury can only base their decisions on information that you had at the time you made the decision to use or threaten the use of deadly force. And nothing more.

Even if the Investigators find other information that could very well explain why your attacker did what he did. If you had no way of knowing the information then neither will the jury.

Even if the information somehow comes to you immediately after you use force.

[Tango down]

I suppose I was considering that there would be witnesses or the assailant was an intruder on your property. Good point.

[Oh Shoot]

Musing in HypotheticalLand, I've thought I might start with a knife.

Worst happens and I'm bound over, my defense is "Well, I could have shot him, ya know?"

- OS

[Tango down]

Or better yet chemical spray followed up with 12 gauge bean bags...just to get their attention.

[TMMT]

I suppose I was considering that there would be witnesses or the assailant was an intruder on your property. Good point.

Assume you are in a gas station bathroom and a 300 pound gorilla comes barging in and attacks you.

And you have no idea why.

But come to find out you unknowingly cut him off when turning into the gas station and he is suffering from classic steroid rage?

[Guest That Guy]

I think you are supposed to make every effort to be clear you want no part of an altercation. Exactly what every effort is, I don't know. Kind of like "a reasonable person to reasonably believe" type wording. Basically, just cower and look like a victim. Don't worry, you'll get the last laugh.

[BlackHawk93]

The reality is we all at some point could very well be in this situation. And while hindsight is 20/20, which is what the jury will have, they might never grasp the fact that you didn't have the time to weigh all the options a good prosecuting attorney will bring up. Which is why I have a thumb break on my holster. Some say it will slow you down. But I just hope that I'm never in a situation where I would have to draw my weapon and not at least take a few seconds to think it over. There are many situations like this. Some people can just plain ole whip some butt. And yes, they COULD grab your weapon. This is one situation I pray I never run into. And now that I have my HCP I feel I will look at situations differently than I have before when people ticked me off. I was taught to handle myself very well without anything while in the military, but these days you never know WHAT some guy is going to pull out or try to do. In the 2 days Ive been carrying now, I haven't felt more safe but the need to be more responsible. Which might just be what ALOT of people need to feel. Bless us all. Be safe

[TMMT]

I think you are supposed to make every effort to be clear you want no part of an altercation. Exactly what every effort is, I don't know. Kind of like "a reasonable person to reasonably believe" type wording. Basically, just cower and look like a victim. Don't worry, you'll get the last laugh.

What your talking about is the reasonable man test and its the objective standard by which an individual's conduct can be measured against. If your actions are judged to be the actions of a reasonable man acting on the information you knew to be factual at the time of the incident then you would most likely escape accusation of criminal negligence.

Edited April 16, 2010 by TMMT

[Guest Benelli Nova Guy]

My HCP instructor basically told us as a HCP holder we have given up our right to a fist fight. Just for the simple fact that if it starts as a fist fight and hes whipping you, you can't legally draw on them unless your life is threatened. The only way to regain your pistol option is to "clearly abandon the provocation". What that means is dependant on the situation. It is our responsibility to be fluent and competent enough to explain to an officer, lawyer, DA etc why we made that decision at the time.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

This exact scenario is why in addition to having my HCP I started taking Karate.

[Guest Catdaddy]

When I took my second HCP class, we were taught to step back on the leg of our carry side, throw up our non-shooting hand and shout "STOP!". If the assailant continued into your body space, draw and shoot. He intends to do you bodily harm.

This keeps your weapon as far away from the BG for as long as possible, and allows you to be in control of it before he is. The time frame can be very short.

It's therefore good practice to be able to draw and fire quickly.

[Guest don_m]

When I took my second HCP class, we were taught to step back on the leg of our carry side, throw up our non-shooting hand and shout "STOP!". If the assailant continued into your body space, draw and shoot. He intends to do you bodily harm.

I'd say your instructor should reconsider some of his dubious legal advice. It will probably be difficult to justify that his scenario rises to the standard of "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury" unless there is a significant "disparity of force."

[Guest Bluemax]

All good answers, unfortunately, there are endless scenarios which can play out. All I will say is keep a cool head. a 90 year old woman charging you with upheld purse is not iminant danger, a 300# crackhead with upheld knife is. This analogy is the extreme and I only use it to illustrate the endless variables which could come into play. My best advice for permit holders is to avoid confrontation if at all possible. If you exhaust all possible, reasonable and rational means to do so... well, thats why you got your permit. I would rather be alive and defending my actions than know my family no longer has a provider because I second guessed myself at the wrong time

[Guest rebelyell]

All good answers, unfortunately, there are endless scenarios which can play out. All I will say is keep a cool head. a 90 year old woman charging you with upheld purse is not iminant danger, a 300# crackhead with upheld knife is. This analogy is the extreme and I only use it to illustrate the endless variables which could come into play. My best advice for permit holders is to avoid confrontation if at all possible. If you exhaust all possible, reasonable and rational means to do so... well, thats why you got your permit. I would rather be alive and defending my actions than know my family no longer has a provider because I second guessed myself at the wrong time

Best answer yet!

[Mad_Squirrell]

What would the PD do ? They would command the attacker to stop or you would be forced to defend yourself "STOP OR ILL SHOOT" ,if the attacker continued they would draw ,if they kept coming they would shoot. I think that it would be reasonable that if you followed that procedure you would be in the clear with the jury .You carry concealed you cannot be sure he is not carrying concealed as well and just has not drawn yet . If the attacker has been given fair warning and keeps coming then he signed his own death certificate .

[Erik88]

I have often wondered what I would do in the scenario the OP mentioned. I'm a small guy and it wouldn't take much effort if someone wanted to give me a good beat down just due to size differences.

My ultimate goal would be to try and put as much distance between myself and the attacker. I don't care what I have to do, if I can get away I'm going to do it. I never ever have to shoot someone, especially an unarmed attacker. I will run like hell if it means getting away from someone.

[molonlabetn]

If there is a sufficient disparity of force for one to believe they are at risk of imminent serious harm... yes... but it seems to me that to any able-bodied person, a single unarmed aggressor of similar size isn't a force disparity. Several guys coming at me would be reason to even the odds though.