hypothetical question

[Guest archerdr1]

ok,

The Situation: You are at work, say a health care situation, and you can leave, but you must take your client with you. Your wife calls you panicking (she is about 95lbs soaking wet) and says that she has run out of gas in a REALLY BAD area at about 11pm on a street with no street lights. She has your two kids with her. You leave, take your individual you support with you and go meet her... quickly. You get a gas tank and have to leave her (it is unsafe to take her and the kids with you due to the client's mental state, or no room in the vehicle). She does not have a carry permit.

My question: Do you A) leave her, tell her to "lock the doors, and wait for me to get back, I will just be a few minutes", or Give her your pistol, tell her "Hide this, somewhere you can get to it quickly, but don't pull it unless you absolutely have to and if you have to use it, shoot until he is down"?

Also, and you LEOs present or former can help me on this, what would a cop do in the event that they stopped and found the gun on her?

Answers to the effect of "Don't run out of Gas" or "Don't drive in bad neighborhoods" are disqualified:D

[RedSuinit]

Risk it. The penalty for her getting caught with a weapon is not worth her possibly getting kidnapped, raped, or worst of all, murdered. Especially when she has kids with her. IMHO I would say to risk it, and hope that if a cop finds out that he will be understanding, and even if he is not, at least there is a cop with her now until you get back, and then you can deal with the punishment later.

Edited April 12, 2010 by RedSuinit

[Guest archerdr1]

ok, to be honest, it is not so hypothetical...It did happen. I am just wanting to see if what I did would be the overall consensus of those on here.

[Tango down]

I would roll with option B as well, and I would guess that most individuals on here would probably do the same in that most of us realize we must be prepared to defend ourselves. The risk of having an interaction with a LEO within just a few minutes waiting on your return is minimal...depending on the location of course, but I do think there is reason to believe they'd be understanding about it.

[TMMT]

I vote to risk it.

But absent probable cause or consent there is no justification for a search. If she's stopped for running a stop sign the officer would need to develop PC to perform a search. And her would have to articulate his steps from point A to B to C to justify his reasoning for performing a search based upon PC. If she is stopped and the cops just comes up to her and says,

"Hey I stopped you because you were weaving, gonna give you a warning but I want to ask you if you have anything in the car I need to know about"?

"Can I search your car?"

Thats a pre textual stop and a huge no-no.

Just tell her that under no circumstances is she to ever give any agent of the state permission to search anything, car, purse, person, home anything.

As long as the gun is completely out of view and she refrains from any type of movement inside the car that could possibly be perceived, if looked at by an officer wearing green coke bottle glasses, while standing on his head during the equinox as furtive movement.

I exaggerate this statement because I have seen officers pull people out of cars on stops and frisk the passenger compartments for weapons based on "furtive movement", movement that was nothing more than the driver reaching for an insurance card.

In the end it all depends on the officer who stops you.

[Smith]

Question?: What "mental health" of the client makes it impossible to stay long enough to make sure she gets off OK, when you took the time to get all the other stuff? Also why would she be in a neighborhood that necessitates firearm protection and not have protection in the first place?

[Guest archerdr1]

I work with a developmentally challenged individual who must have constant supervision. I had to get her some gas and bring it back to the car. I then followed her to the gas station and filled her tank up. She was in the neighborhood b/c she brought me dinner (and I work in one of those areas) and was low on gas and only about 2 miles to the gas station and she didn't make it. The gun was in the car unloaded, but I loaded it and said "Here, hide it"

Yeah, those were in the "Answers to the effect of "Don't run out of Gas" or "Don't drive in bad neighborhoods" are disqualified" section in the OP I tell her over and over not to let her car get past 1/4 tank, but she is a woman and when her saab says she has 10 miles til empty, she believes it!

[Smith]

I work with a developmentally challenged individual who must have constant supervision. I had to get her some gas and bring it back to the car. I then followed her to the gas station and filled her tank up. She was in the neighborhood b/c she brought me dinner (and I work in one of those areas) and was low on gas and only about 2 miles to the gas station and she didn't make it. The gun was in the car unloaded, but I loaded it and said "Here, hide it"

Yeah, those were in the "Answers to the effect of "Don't run out of Gas" or "Don't drive in bad neighborhoods" are disqualified" section in the OP I tell her over and over not to let her car get past 1/4 tank, but she is a woman and when her saab says she has 10 miles til empty, she believes it!

I'm missing something. You were with her the whole time? If so then there is no need for the hypothetical. BTW - Mine were questions for clarification not answers.

[Guest bkelm18]

I'm missing something. You were with her the whole time? If so then there is no need for the hypothetical. BTW - Mine were questions for clarification not answers.

He was with his client, his wife came and brought him dinner but ran out of gas.

[Smith]

ok,

The Situation: You are at work, say a health care situation, and you can leave, but you must take your client with you. Your wife calls you panicking (she is about 95lbs soaking wet) and says that she has run out of gas in a REALLY BAD area at about 11pm on a street with no street lights. She has your two kids with her. You leave, take your individual you support with you and go meet her... quickly. You get a gas tank and have to leave her (it is unsafe to take her and the kids with you due to the client's mental state, or no room in the vehicle). She does not have a carry permit.

My question: Do you A) leave her, tell her to "lock the doors, and wait for me to get back, I will just be a few minutes", or Give her your pistol, tell her "Hide this, somewhere you can get to it quickly, but don't pull it unless you absolutely have to and if you have to use it, shoot until he is down"?

Also, and you LEOs present or former can help me on this, what would a cop do in the event that they stopped and found the gun on her?

Answers to the effect of "Don't run out of Gas" or "Don't drive in bad neighborhoods" are disqualified:D

He was with his client, his wife came and brought him dinner but ran out of gas.

Got that, but in the OP he said he left her thus leaving the gun with her. I read it as he left her stranded while he went for gas. In the follow up he said he got the gas THEN met her and then followed her to the station to fill up. Thus there would have been no need to leave her with a gun and no permit since he was with her till she was out of the danger zone. Unless I missed something.

If I read it right the first time i agree he did the right thing. If the second scenario is correct she was in no more danger before or after.

Then again maybe I'm making something simple overly complicated. He did the right thing....maybe?

[Fire/hunting guy]

Carrying a gun in a vehicle without a permit is only a misdemeanor from what I understand. That is all the UT basketball players were charged with. So, risk a misdemeanor, or risk something horrible happening? I think you made the right move, same thing I would've done.

[Fire/hunting guy]

ok,

She does not have a carry permit.

I bet it won't be hard to convince her to change her mind now, I'd get her in now while this scenario is fresh on her mind.

[daddyo]

No one here is a member of AAA? I'm calling them to bring me some gas while I stay with her and the kids. No way I would leave her there, gun or no.

[Guest archerdr1]

I met her first, calmed her down and got the gas tank out of her trunk then had to leave her. Didn't want to, but there was no room to put them in the vehicle and it would put them in danger if I could. Client is not too keen on kids. I am trying, but gotta get her comfy with the whole Boom thing or she could never do the shooting. Thinking about getting some rubber loads... only so we can practice in my garage and not have to drive to the range. She is more nervous if she is around people and afraid to shoot. If she is not around others, she might practice but the only way to ensure that is if I were able to practice indoors at home, so I am thinking rubber loads with my .38

[Guest archerdr1]

oh, and it was only about a block from the gas station.

[Fallguy]

One thing I thought of....

If she doesn't have a HCP and/or isn't comfortable with handguns....would leaving her yours (regardless of the law or not) really be of any help?

[lowbud]

I would have done everything possible to either stay or find someone who could before leaving her stranded in that sutuation. But if all other means failed.... and sometimes that does happen.. I would leave her with my gun.

hindsight sucks. especially when dealing with life and death.

[MCSCOTT]

No one here is a member of AAA? I'm calling them to bring me some gas while I stay with her and the kids. No way I would leave her there, gun or no.

AAA or not I have to agree with you on not leaving them. I would have called someone to come bring us some gas while I waited with them for my peace of mind, or at least tried to find a LEO to stay while I went for gas.

I suppose if I could only choose between option A and option B it would have been B, as option A would simply be out of the question. Before I did that, I would have tied my client's hands to the steering wheel, locked the car doors, and left him there so that I could take my family with me to get gas.

[JAB]

Before I did that, I would have tied my client's hands to the steering wheel, locked the car doors, and left him there so that I could take my family with me to get gas.

If you were working with a client who has an official diagnosis of MR or other mental disability and receives state funding (or maybe even if they don't receive state funding) and if anyone ever found out about that - and you would be surprised at what people see and report - you would be fired, put on an abuse register for the rest of your life, never allowed to work in the field, again and possibly jailed. Restricting a client's movements (even holding their hands still - forget tying their hands) for more than 59 seconds, straight is considered 'restraint' and is a serious violation - even if the client is trying to kick your ass (see, clients have all kinds of rights but the state seems to feel that folks who work with them have no rights.) Of course, there are also DMRS (or DIDS or whatever they are calling themselves this month) rules about having a firearm around a client but that is neither here nor there.

To the OP, were you driving an agency car or one of your personal vehicles? In your situation, if driving a personal vehicle, maybe you could have sent your wife and kids to get gas while you waited with the client in the stranded vehicle? Also, does your wife at least have pepper spray? My wife isn't ready to get her carry permit, yet, so I made sure that she at least carries pepper spray. Not the best but better than nothing.

Edited April 12, 2010 by JAB

[safeandsecure]

First ... I agree that leaving her your weapon was more than acceptable ...

But, just for the sake of discussion, how about this:

You let her and the kids take YOUR vehicle; you and your client stay with HER vehicle while SHE gets the gas and returns to you?

Just thinkin' out loud ... ...

[Guest db99wj]

First ... I agree that leaving her your weapon was more than acceptable ...

But, just for the sake of discussion, how about this:

You let her and the kids take YOUR vehicle; you and your client stay with HER vehicle while SHE gets the gas and returns to you?

Just thinkin' out loud ... ...

Very good answer.

[MCSCOTT]

If you were working with a client who has an official diagnosis of MR or other mental disability and receives state funding (or maybe even if they don't receive state funding) and if anyone ever found out about that - and you would be surprised at what people see and report - you would be fired, put on an abuse register for the rest of your life, never allowed to work in the field, again and possibly jailed. Restricting a client's movements (even holding their hands still - forget tying their hands) for more than 59 seconds, straight is considered 'restraint' and is a serious violation - even if the client is trying to kick your ass (see, clients have all kinds of rights but the state seems to feel that folks who work with them have no rights.) Of course, there are also DMRS (or DIDS or whatever they are calling themselves this month) rules about having a firearm around a client but that is neither here nor there.

To the OP, were you driving an agency car or one of your personal vehicles? In your situation, if driving a personal vehicle, maybe you could have sent your wife and kids to get gas while you waited with the client in the stranded vehicle? Also, does your wife at least have pepper spray? My wife isn't ready to get her carry permit, yet, so I made sure that she at least carries pepper spray. Not the best but better than nothing.

I would hope that most folks would understand that that part of my post was in a joking manner, because tying anyone to anything and leaving them like that can get you in serious trouble, doesn't matter if it's a client or not, or mental condition or not. I was basically stating that for me personally leaving my family alone in a bad neighborhood is NOT an option, and job loss or jail time wouldn't matter much to me in the situation.

[Hgunner]

First ... I agree that leaving her your weapon was more than acceptable ...

But, just for the sake of discussion, how about this:

You let her and the kids take YOUR vehicle; you and your client stay with HER vehicle while SHE gets the gas and returns to you?

Just thinkin' out loud ... ...

My thought exactly, what precluded you and the client staying with the disabled auto ( with gun), while the wife and kids took your vehicle to get gas?

[saintsfanbrian]

That would make the most sense. Let the wife and kids take the car to get gas while you wait with the client is what I was thinking about this scenario.

[Guest ogreabroad]

That would make the most sense. Let the wife and kids take the car to get gas while you wait with the client is what I was thinking about this scenario.

This was my line of thinking as well, until I read that the gas station was only a block away. Assuming that the gas station, a place where undesireables tend to flock in bad neighborhoods, was no better than where she was stranded... i woulda done the same as the OP. If the gas station WAS slightly more safe, I would have most likely sent the wifey n kids off while i waited.